We can never see past the choices we do not understand.

This idea was expressed several times in the second two Matrix movies. We can never see past the choices we do not understand. It’s absolutely brilliant, and even if it would have been the only significant idea expressed in the entire trilogy, that one idea alone makes the whole movie series worth watching.

We can never see past the choices we do not understand. There’s a reason for this; if we do not understand the choice, how can we understand its implications?

But I didn’t come here to talk about the Matrix. I came here to talk about relationships.

In 1992, I was deeply, passionately in love. Her name was Robin, and she was living with Kelly and I.

It was a disaster. For many reasons, mostly my own, the relationship failed; that relationship taught me that I’m not immune to jealousy, that a cold shoulder is the relationship equivalent of a nuclear weapon, and that some kinds of damage done to any relationship can’t be repaired.

Eleven years later, the structure of my relationship with Kelly still reverbrates with the damage I did during my relationship with Robin, like a bell struck too hard. One of the consequences of my relationship with Robin is that Kelly vowed never again to live with anyone else in general, but particularly with anyone who is my lover.

Shelly wants to live with me. This is something very important to her, and it’s very important to me as well. My relationship with Shelly has reawakened in me the things that have been sleeping for eleven years–the very same things that led me to want to live with Robin all those years ago. At the end of the day, I’m not polyamorous because I want to sleep with a bunch of chicks; at the end of the day, I’m polyamorous because of the way I feel about family, and commitment, and love.

I knew that once, and I forgot it. Now I’ve learned it again.

Last week, Kelly agreed to let Shelly move in with us.

The past year has been extremely hard on all three of us. Kelly is not polyamorous; her ideas about love and family are very different from mine, and from Shelly’s. Kelly would be much happier if I did not love the people I sleep with–or at least, if I did not love them deeply. Many of the reasons for this are rooted in her past; other reasons seem to be a fundamental part of who she is. My relationship with Kelly has been an eighteen-year story of negotiation, and compromise, and seeking to find the middle ground between what is ultimately two fundamentally contradictory worldviews.

The contradiction between Kelly and I creates stresses that are most sharply focussed at the point where someone who loves me resides. Over the past year, Shelly has been hurt repeatedly–not through any deliberate malice on kelly’s part, but simply because Kelly wants a life that does not include anyone else. The exclusive model of family is particularly hard on anyone who wants to join an existing poly relationship in a way that’s inclusive.

Kelly doesn’t precisely understand how she has hurt Shelly. As a result, it’s hard for Shelly to feel safe, and to believe that Kelly won’t hurt her again.

Kelly is, I believe, sincerely trying to understand my relationship with Shelly. And she has decided to invite Shelly to live with us. But she does not understand her decision, because she does not, ultimately, understand my ideas about family, and I do not understand hers.

We can never see past the choices we do not understand.

Kelly has made a series of choices since the start of our relationship. She has made the choice to be involved with me, even knowing that I am polyamorous and that this is such a fundamental part of who I am that I cannot be happy any other way. She has made the choice to accept, even if she does not understand, my relationship with Shelly. She has made the choice to invite Shelly into her home.

But she does not understand these choices, and because of that, I wonder if she understands how hard it will be for Shelly to live with us, knowing that she is making herself vulnerable in a way that means Kelly can easily hurt her very badly.

Shelly is in a difficult position: She loves me, she wants to build a life with me, but she believes that if she does, she will be hurt. kelly is in a difficult position; she is being asked to give up something she feels is important for her, and she is being asked to trust that Shelly and I will take care of her and listen to her needs, and she does not understand how that is possible. I am in a difficult position; my family is broken, and I do not know how to fix it.

We can never see past the choices we do not understand. Wish us luck.

62 thoughts on “We can never see past the choices we do not understand.

  1. I am really, really happy to hear that Kelly has decided to open her home to Shelly. I wish you guys the best of luck, and I do hope it turns out well. This is an incredibly brave step.

    One selfish concern, however– does this mean I’ll have to put Chai into a no-kill shelter? I don’t have any other options right now…

      • Forgive the bitter tone in my text.. but Kelly just happened to wait until about 2 weeks after I had completely snapped and my relationship with her was broken.. This is all too little too late. But I tend to be the kind of person who likes to take the path that requires the most courage and I’m scared to the point of being livid – so this seems like a good choice (well, not a *good* choice, but the best of those available – such is the nature of this relationship). So let’s set this bomb off and see where everything lands.

        That having beend said:

        I would be a total idiot to move in with them without having a place in backup. I doubt I will move much more than my big air mattress and my computer – with many trips to my home to care for chai. I am grateful for my 7 month lease with Mel, because I need all the safety net I can get :).

        No worries.

  2. I am really, really happy to hear that Kelly has decided to open her home to Shelly. I wish you guys the best of luck, and I do hope it turns out well. This is an incredibly brave step.

    One selfish concern, however– does this mean I’ll have to put Chai into a no-kill shelter? I don’t have any other options right now…

  3. Here is something for your ponderances:

    a goal is like a beachball floating on the top of a still pool. as you know, if you swim up and try to grab a beachball, it gently floats away from you. in fact, the more you grab for it, the more impossible it becomes to grab it.
    in this instance, it seems like there are three of you all grabing for the same beachball. impossibily X 3.

    how does one catch a floating beachball?
    by staying still in the water and letting the ball float to you.

    godspeed and good luck to the all’s of you.

  4. Here is something for your ponderances:

    a goal is like a beachball floating on the top of a still pool. as you know, if you swim up and try to grab a beachball, it gently floats away from you. in fact, the more you grab for it, the more impossible it becomes to grab it.
    in this instance, it seems like there are three of you all grabing for the same beachball. impossibily X 3.

    how does one catch a floating beachball?
    by staying still in the water and letting the ball float to you.

    godspeed and good luck to the all’s of you.

  5. From the perspective of one who lives with a polyamorous person, but who essentially is not myself,I can say with some degree of certainty that your partner of 18 years may very well understand her choices.Fundamental diffrences about what constitutes a family are more often the case than not, even our societally proscribed definitions are not “fundamentally” agreed upon by members of those families. Some use genetic and blood ties, some affectional, most use some combination of the two…others may even extend the monicker of ‘family’ to situational ties or circumstantial relations.
    To ask someone who loves you to not only ACCEPT who you are but welcome someone else into that often deep and treacherous territory called relationship is often very very frightening. After years of negotiating and renegotiating the vagaries of a relationship with all it’s inevitable hurts and petty betrayals I can honestly say I would no be thrilled to open my entire life to the scrutiny of another pair of eyes that love my partner. BUT I would probably do it for the sake of my partners happiness regardless of what it may cost me in personal pain. This does not make me a martyr, but a pragmatist… MY life is a living hell when she is not happy….soooo perhaps your partner understands perfectly why she is willing to accept something less than her ideal….perhaps she is engaging in a bit of enlightened self interest. If your relationship is anything like mine, having a happy partner is akin to heaven , a miserable one like hell….Good luck in sorting all this out.

    • “From the perspective of one who lives with a polyamorous person, but who essentially is not myself,I can say with some degree of certainty that your partner of 18 years may very well understand her choices.”

      I think perhaps the “why” of a choice like this should be based, at least in part, on an understanding of what it is that makes a polyamorous person polyamorous to begin with. Absent that, you can base your “why” on “I want my partner to be happy,” but that’s not really the same thing as doing it because you want a family. The problem that can be created by a desire to see one’s partner happy is that the partner’s other partner becomes a gift, not a human being…

      I know that’s probably not very clear. The problem becomes quite complex, because Kelly does want to make me happy, but somehow, she sometimes forgets to consider Shelly’s needs, and she ends up acting more like Shelly is a thing that Kelly does for me rather than like Shelly is a flesh-and-blood person with her own needs and rights and ideas.

      Does that make any sense?

      • what about kelly? Is SHE happy?

        Doesn’t that put the onus on the other (always nicer than having it on oneself, onuses are hairy, itchy things)? “If you love me you would want me to be happy” and the unheard…”even at the expense of your own happiness.”

        good luck to you all, Tacit. I hope you all find a way to make it work, if that is what is good for all of you.

        Leslie

      • Your description makes sense. I think you are in a very difficult position, yet I can empathize with Kelly. In essence you are asking Kelly to care about Shelly as a PARTNER,and since she is not poly you may be asking for something that is unreasonable.Your emotional involvement with Shelly is also apparent(and I may add, probably very exciting in its newness,compared to 18 years) No matter how this works out, you are in for a bumpy ride. As someone who is essentially monogomous, I can’t say I could place my partners other significant partners needs on an equal footing with my own or my partners.family doesn’t require I make everyones needs equal all the time, and never does my family have the right to ask me to sacrifice my well being for theirs. The truth is we are all individually responsible for our own needs and our own happiness. The gift of love is that we often make anothers needs as important as our own.Kelly’s love makes your needs important to her, however she may not feel love for Shelly, and in that case asking Kelly to consider Shelly’s needs is alot like asking someone to love their in-laws as much as they love their own parents. Not likely, possible, but not likely. What usually happens in things like this is the person in your shoes wants everyone to care THEIR way, and as much as they do. Perhaps your emotions are running a little high and your expectations are a little unrealistic. I find that when I’m in situations where i am invested in HOW things work out, nothing works. I usually have to let go of my personal wishes and let everyone work their part of the relationship out for themselves or i have hell to pay on all fronts. the fact that Kelly relented should tell you how much she values your happiness, and maybe saying yes is the gift, but in attempting to get Kelly to care MORE you are guaranteeing a miserable failure. Kelly does not owe Shelly anything more than common courtesy, and vice versa.Expecting more than that is unfair to all of you.I don’t envy you the next few weeks. Your role is going to be the toughest of all.If I were in your shoes i’d set very clear boundaries about NOT listening to either parties issues, but ask that they deal with each other directly, and I’d stay out of their relationship as much as possible…never ever get yourself in the middle.Any perception that you have picked sides can only make a mess. As for wanting a loving family…it sounds like you have one…with all it’s glorious struggles and infighting and dynamics…I hope this experiment works out for the good of all of you.

        • I think you might be missing the point.

          In essence you are asking Kelly to care about Shelly as a PARTNER,and since she is not poly you may be asking for something that is unreasonable.

          Yeah, exactly. Being monogamous for some people is woven into your heart and soul like poly is for others. For whatever reasons, some people have really truly looked into their hearts and souls and come to the conclusion that they are happiest and healthiest with one romantic/sexual relationship. I think you’re asking your mono partner to treat your OSO as her own partner, like partnerhood is transitive. It’s not. She may simply not be wired to have those kind of partnerhood feelings towards another person. This is a completely valid choice/state of being, and deserves as much respect as your polyness does. Monogamy is not less while poly is more.

          If you aren’t willing to be untrue to your own nature, is it fair to ask her to be? Is it respectful of who she is?

      • No sense at all actually…

        No, this doesn’t make sense to me. What is clear, however, is that you are one very foolish and very selfish man. Kelly wants to make you happy all right – you can read it in practically everything she writes and now she has even agreed to let another woman move into her home, just to please you.

        You wife’s ‘needs and wants’ should be your top priority, but they aren’t. YOUR needs and wants are paramount it seems. All your talk about ‘satisfying all your partner’s needs’ counts for nothing in my eyes. I thought for a while there that you might be different, but you’re not after all, and you have now gambled with your future with your wife.

        One day you’ll turn around and find you’re 40 years old and your wife has long ago left you, and it will be entirely your own fault Mr Veaux.

        I hope Kelly will be strong enough to move on without you and I have a feeling she might just be a whole lot better off for it.

        Cheers

        • Re: No sense at all actually…

          “You wife’s ‘needs and wants’ should be your top priority, but they aren’t.”

          Codependent much?

          Any person who makes another person’s needs and wants his first or only priority can neither hope to be happy nor make his partner happy. All the people in a relationship–including Kelly, and also including me–have a right to be happy.

          I notice you’ve been getting more and more abusive, and vilifying me more and more, as time goes by, but you’ve never once bothered to consider whether or not I’m happy. Why is that, I wonder?

          • Re: No sense at all actually…

            Apologies, I apparently didn’t expand enough on what I was trying to say – which was that your wife’s emotional needs and personal happiness should take priority over another person outside of this ‘prime relationship’. Isn’t she the most important person in the world to you (other than yourself)? If you allow the needs of others to subjegate those of your wife’s, I believe it is inevitable that you will fail. If you yourself cannot be happy unless ALL your personal needs are fulfilled, (will it ever be possible even?) then therein lies a real problem. What is it that would make you truly happy I wonder? Do you even know? Maybe you were as happy as you were ever going to be around, say, December last year. What if, by trying to grasp at more, you lost what you already have? I’m not saying that we all shouldn’t strive to better ourselves and to attain as much personal happiness and well-being as possible in the time we have, but if that puts in jeopardy what we already possess and value, then it is a huge gamble. Worse still would be if it risks the happiness and well-being of someone we love.

            It’s a given here (of course) that I am expressing a personal opinion only, and it is your life after all, to do with what you will. The problem with these ‘live journals’ is that you sometimes get intrusive, interfering people who, after all don’t even KNOW you, offering their unwanted opinions. However, most of the comments coming back to you which I have read over the past 18 months or so have been positive, so it’s not so bad really, to have some negative feedback.

            And if you have found my comments ‘abusive and vilifying’, then I owe you a sincere apology. I think perhaps I have allowed my personal history with a VERY similar person to yourself, with resultant damage to all, plus my empathy and admiration for Kelly, to unfairly colour my judgement of you – and this is not my place.

            I won’t annoy you with any more of my opinions – maybe I will check in here again in a year or so and see how things have turned out. Or maybe not.

            By the way, I do very much like that Buddhist saying about ‘friends and enemies’.

            Take care.

  6. From the perspective of one who lives with a polyamorous person, but who essentially is not myself,I can say with some degree of certainty that your partner of 18 years may very well understand her choices.Fundamental diffrences about what constitutes a family are more often the case than not, even our societally proscribed definitions are not “fundamentally” agreed upon by members of those families. Some use genetic and blood ties, some affectional, most use some combination of the two…others may even extend the monicker of ‘family’ to situational ties or circumstantial relations.
    To ask someone who loves you to not only ACCEPT who you are but welcome someone else into that often deep and treacherous territory called relationship is often very very frightening. After years of negotiating and renegotiating the vagaries of a relationship with all it’s inevitable hurts and petty betrayals I can honestly say I would no be thrilled to open my entire life to the scrutiny of another pair of eyes that love my partner. BUT I would probably do it for the sake of my partners happiness regardless of what it may cost me in personal pain. This does not make me a martyr, but a pragmatist… MY life is a living hell when she is not happy….soooo perhaps your partner understands perfectly why she is willing to accept something less than her ideal….perhaps she is engaging in a bit of enlightened self interest. If your relationship is anything like mine, having a happy partner is akin to heaven , a miserable one like hell….Good luck in sorting all this out.

  7. I wish you all well, and luck, and gentleness with each other and yourselves, and mutual support, and whatever else you need to make this work out for the best for all of you.

  8. I wish you all well, and luck, and gentleness with each other and yourselves, and mutual support, and whatever else you need to make this work out for the best for all of you.

  9. Oh, much luck wished upon you and yours. And if Shelly needs someone to talk to who understands her position, she’s welcome to e-mail me at the livejournal address.

  10. Oh, much luck wished upon you and yours. And if Shelly needs someone to talk to who understands her position, she’s welcome to e-mail me at the livejournal address.

  11. Eleven years later, the structure of my relationship with Kelly still reverbrates with the damage I did during my relationship with Robin, like a bell struck too hard.

    Hear, hear! With my wife and me, it was damage done during a disastrous attempt to build an “instant quad” with little regard toward the necessary process of taking the time for all involved to get to know one another enough to decide whether getting involved was a good idea, which it turned out not to be.

    Six years later, I find myself leery of getting too close to most of the possible romantic interests I currently meet, taking so much time to be sure of things that I give the impression that I’m not interested at all, while my wife is leery of similar involvements for fear of triggering the same sort of abandonment psychosis in me that happened during the course of the abortive attempt.

    “Oh, what a tangled web we weave…”

    Good luck.

  12. Eleven years later, the structure of my relationship with Kelly still reverbrates with the damage I did during my relationship with Robin, like a bell struck too hard.

    Hear, hear! With my wife and me, it was damage done during a disastrous attempt to build an “instant quad” with little regard toward the necessary process of taking the time for all involved to get to know one another enough to decide whether getting involved was a good idea, which it turned out not to be.

    Six years later, I find myself leery of getting too close to most of the possible romantic interests I currently meet, taking so much time to be sure of things that I give the impression that I’m not interested at all, while my wife is leery of similar involvements for fear of triggering the same sort of abandonment psychosis in me that happened during the course of the abortive attempt.

    “Oh, what a tangled web we weave…”

    Good luck.

  13. Forgive the bitter tone in my text.. but Kelly just happened to wait until about 2 weeks after I had completely snapped and my relationship with her was broken.. This is all too little too late. But I tend to be the kind of person who likes to take the path that requires the most courage and I’m scared to the point of being livid – so this seems like a good choice (well, not a *good* choice, but the best of those available – such is the nature of this relationship). So let’s set this bomb off and see where everything lands.

    That having beend said:

    I would be a total idiot to move in with them without having a place in backup. I doubt I will move much more than my big air mattress and my computer – with many trips to my home to care for chai. I am grateful for my 7 month lease with Mel, because I need all the safety net I can get :).

    No worries.

  14. “From the perspective of one who lives with a polyamorous person, but who essentially is not myself,I can say with some degree of certainty that your partner of 18 years may very well understand her choices.”

    I think perhaps the “why” of a choice like this should be based, at least in part, on an understanding of what it is that makes a polyamorous person polyamorous to begin with. Absent that, you can base your “why” on “I want my partner to be happy,” but that’s not really the same thing as doing it because you want a family. The problem that can be created by a desire to see one’s partner happy is that the partner’s other partner becomes a gift, not a human being…

    I know that’s probably not very clear. The problem becomes quite complex, because Kelly does want to make me happy, but somehow, she sometimes forgets to consider Shelly’s needs, and she ends up acting more like Shelly is a thing that Kelly does for me rather than like Shelly is a flesh-and-blood person with her own needs and rights and ideas.

    Does that make any sense?

  15. Kelly

    Franklin,

    You must be a gambling man at heart, because it appears you are willing to risk losing your wife in order that your girlfriend can live with you. And your wife is not even polyamorous – that’s the crazy part. How you could risk your marriage, when you saw and felt the pain of what happened before, is beyond me.

    And I do wish you luck, but mostly to Kelly, because she doesn’t want to do this, but is allowing it to happen anyway. Loving someone can make you do strange things alas! I hope there is someone there for Kelly when it comes time to pick up the pieces.

    Cheers

    Ruth

  16. Kelly

    Franklin,

    You must be a gambling man at heart, because it appears you are willing to risk losing your wife in order that your girlfriend can live with you. And your wife is not even polyamorous – that’s the crazy part. How you could risk your marriage, when you saw and felt the pain of what happened before, is beyond me.

    And I do wish you luck, but mostly to Kelly, because she doesn’t want to do this, but is allowing it to happen anyway. Loving someone can make you do strange things alas! I hope there is someone there for Kelly when it comes time to pick up the pieces.

    Cheers

    Ruth

  17. what about kelly? Is SHE happy?

    Doesn’t that put the onus on the other (always nicer than having it on oneself, onuses are hairy, itchy things)? “If you love me you would want me to be happy” and the unheard…”even at the expense of your own happiness.”

    good luck to you all, Tacit. I hope you all find a way to make it work, if that is what is good for all of you.

    Leslie

  18. Your description makes sense. I think you are in a very difficult position, yet I can empathize with Kelly. In essence you are asking Kelly to care about Shelly as a PARTNER,and since she is not poly you may be asking for something that is unreasonable.Your emotional involvement with Shelly is also apparent(and I may add, probably very exciting in its newness,compared to 18 years) No matter how this works out, you are in for a bumpy ride. As someone who is essentially monogomous, I can’t say I could place my partners other significant partners needs on an equal footing with my own or my partners.family doesn’t require I make everyones needs equal all the time, and never does my family have the right to ask me to sacrifice my well being for theirs. The truth is we are all individually responsible for our own needs and our own happiness. The gift of love is that we often make anothers needs as important as our own.Kelly’s love makes your needs important to her, however she may not feel love for Shelly, and in that case asking Kelly to consider Shelly’s needs is alot like asking someone to love their in-laws as much as they love their own parents. Not likely, possible, but not likely. What usually happens in things like this is the person in your shoes wants everyone to care THEIR way, and as much as they do. Perhaps your emotions are running a little high and your expectations are a little unrealistic. I find that when I’m in situations where i am invested in HOW things work out, nothing works. I usually have to let go of my personal wishes and let everyone work their part of the relationship out for themselves or i have hell to pay on all fronts. the fact that Kelly relented should tell you how much she values your happiness, and maybe saying yes is the gift, but in attempting to get Kelly to care MORE you are guaranteeing a miserable failure. Kelly does not owe Shelly anything more than common courtesy, and vice versa.Expecting more than that is unfair to all of you.I don’t envy you the next few weeks. Your role is going to be the toughest of all.If I were in your shoes i’d set very clear boundaries about NOT listening to either parties issues, but ask that they deal with each other directly, and I’d stay out of their relationship as much as possible…never ever get yourself in the middle.Any perception that you have picked sides can only make a mess. As for wanting a loving family…it sounds like you have one…with all it’s glorious struggles and infighting and dynamics…I hope this experiment works out for the good of all of you.

  19. One totally selfish and self-obsessed man

    That’s you Franklin, and even though you this will all come crashing down on you one day soon, unfortunately, it will come crashing down on Kelly as well, and she has done nothing to deserve it. Except chose the wrong man perhaps.

    • Re: One totally selfish and self-obsessed man

      I appreciate your support. However, I believe you have been talking out of turn.

      I did not feel browbeaten in to making the decisions I have made. Nor am I here because I do not have a choice. Understand, that he has told me everyday, at least once, usually many more times then that, that he loves me. Remember 17 years is a long time to pretend to love someone. The last 2 years have certainly been the most difficult of our relationship, however we both are changing. Our lives have changed, our friends have changed. I may be a little slow to change, but he is still here for me. Maybe with time, Shelly will also be.

      See, I don’t give up that easy. I am not willing to throw in the towl so to speak. I am not willing to throw away almost 1/2 of my life with a man that I love to what I think may not work. I am aware relationships take work. I am willing to do the work. It is important to me that I, at the very least, try. I can not, and will not walk away from a 17 year long, for the most part, wonderful relationship because my husbands needs are changing. I also need to change. I want to grow as a person, I am still trying to figure out if this is a will be a good life for me. I am trusting him and Shelly that it will be. I am trusting them, that this will not be in vein. And we can all be happy.

      Again thanks for your support. Also keep in mind that we do have good times. That only the most frustrating of issues ends up on LJ because the good times do not need to be processed.

      • My opinion

        I wasn’t suggesting for one moment that you leave him Kelly – far from it. And OF COURSE you have many good times together. And OF COURSE he isn’t pretending that he loves you – heaven forbid!! But I do stand by my opinion of Franklin and what he is doing, and that is my perogative. Maybe it’s all far more complex – time will tell.

        You see different things to me and after all, you know Franklin, I don’t. But you know, you can pick up a hell of a lot via these journals, and I’ve read quite a bit on an off over the past 18 months. Sometimes a writer can tend to forget that others are ‘listening’. And you HAVE written about the good things, as well as the bad.

        I’m not at all ‘talking out of turn’ by the way – I am free to offer my opinion and as I said to you before – just accept it or reject it as you wish, it really doesn’t matter to me.

        I know that one way or another you will end up ok, and I wish you only the best of luck for your forthcoming surgery and for your future.

        You take care.

        Ruth

  20. One totally selfish and self-obsessed man

    That’s you Franklin, and even though you this will all come crashing down on you one day soon, unfortunately, it will come crashing down on Kelly as well, and she has done nothing to deserve it. Except chose the wrong man perhaps.

  21. Re: One totally selfish and self-obsessed man

    I appreciate your support. However, I believe you have been talking out of turn.

    I did not feel browbeaten in to making the decisions I have made. Nor am I here because I do not have a choice. Understand, that he has told me everyday, at least once, usually many more times then that, that he loves me. Remember 17 years is a long time to pretend to love someone. The last 2 years have certainly been the most difficult of our relationship, however we both are changing. Our lives have changed, our friends have changed. I may be a little slow to change, but he is still here for me. Maybe with time, Shelly will also be.

    See, I don’t give up that easy. I am not willing to throw in the towl so to speak. I am not willing to throw away almost 1/2 of my life with a man that I love to what I think may not work. I am aware relationships take work. I am willing to do the work. It is important to me that I, at the very least, try. I can not, and will not walk away from a 17 year long, for the most part, wonderful relationship because my husbands needs are changing. I also need to change. I want to grow as a person, I am still trying to figure out if this is a will be a good life for me. I am trusting him and Shelly that it will be. I am trusting them, that this will not be in vein. And we can all be happy.

    Again thanks for your support. Also keep in mind that we do have good times. That only the most frustrating of issues ends up on LJ because the good times do not need to be processed.

  22. No sense at all actually…

    No, this doesn’t make sense to me. What is clear, however, is that you are one very foolish and very selfish man. Kelly wants to make you happy all right – you can read it in practically everything she writes and now she has even agreed to let another woman move into her home, just to please you.

    You wife’s ‘needs and wants’ should be your top priority, but they aren’t. YOUR needs and wants are paramount it seems. All your talk about ‘satisfying all your partner’s needs’ counts for nothing in my eyes. I thought for a while there that you might be different, but you’re not after all, and you have now gambled with your future with your wife.

    One day you’ll turn around and find you’re 40 years old and your wife has long ago left you, and it will be entirely your own fault Mr Veaux.

    I hope Kelly will be strong enough to move on without you and I have a feeling she might just be a whole lot better off for it.

    Cheers

  23. My opinion

    I wasn’t suggesting for one moment that you leave him Kelly – far from it. And OF COURSE you have many good times together. And OF COURSE he isn’t pretending that he loves you – heaven forbid!! But I do stand by my opinion of Franklin and what he is doing, and that is my perogative. Maybe it’s all far more complex – time will tell.

    You see different things to me and after all, you know Franklin, I don’t. But you know, you can pick up a hell of a lot via these journals, and I’ve read quite a bit on an off over the past 18 months. Sometimes a writer can tend to forget that others are ‘listening’. And you HAVE written about the good things, as well as the bad.

    I’m not at all ‘talking out of turn’ by the way – I am free to offer my opinion and as I said to you before – just accept it or reject it as you wish, it really doesn’t matter to me.

    I know that one way or another you will end up ok, and I wish you only the best of luck for your forthcoming surgery and for your future.

    You take care.

    Ruth

  24. Re: No sense at all actually…

    “You wife’s ‘needs and wants’ should be your top priority, but they aren’t.”

    Codependent much?

    Any person who makes another person’s needs and wants his first or only priority can neither hope to be happy nor make his partner happy. All the people in a relationship–including Kelly, and also including me–have a right to be happy.

    I notice you’ve been getting more and more abusive, and vilifying me more and more, as time goes by, but you’ve never once bothered to consider whether or not I’m happy. Why is that, I wonder?

  25. Re: No sense at all actually…

    Apologies, I apparently didn’t expand enough on what I was trying to say – which was that your wife’s emotional needs and personal happiness should take priority over another person outside of this ‘prime relationship’. Isn’t she the most important person in the world to you (other than yourself)? If you allow the needs of others to subjegate those of your wife’s, I believe it is inevitable that you will fail. If you yourself cannot be happy unless ALL your personal needs are fulfilled, (will it ever be possible even?) then therein lies a real problem. What is it that would make you truly happy I wonder? Do you even know? Maybe you were as happy as you were ever going to be around, say, December last year. What if, by trying to grasp at more, you lost what you already have? I’m not saying that we all shouldn’t strive to better ourselves and to attain as much personal happiness and well-being as possible in the time we have, but if that puts in jeopardy what we already possess and value, then it is a huge gamble. Worse still would be if it risks the happiness and well-being of someone we love.

    It’s a given here (of course) that I am expressing a personal opinion only, and it is your life after all, to do with what you will. The problem with these ‘live journals’ is that you sometimes get intrusive, interfering people who, after all don’t even KNOW you, offering their unwanted opinions. However, most of the comments coming back to you which I have read over the past 18 months or so have been positive, so it’s not so bad really, to have some negative feedback.

    And if you have found my comments ‘abusive and vilifying’, then I owe you a sincere apology. I think perhaps I have allowed my personal history with a VERY similar person to yourself, with resultant damage to all, plus my empathy and admiration for Kelly, to unfairly colour my judgement of you – and this is not my place.

    I won’t annoy you with any more of my opinions – maybe I will check in here again in a year or so and see how things have turned out. Or maybe not.

    By the way, I do very much like that Buddhist saying about ‘friends and enemies’.

    Take care.

  26. I think you might be missing the point.

    In essence you are asking Kelly to care about Shelly as a PARTNER,and since she is not poly you may be asking for something that is unreasonable.

    Yeah, exactly. Being monogamous for some people is woven into your heart and soul like poly is for others. For whatever reasons, some people have really truly looked into their hearts and souls and come to the conclusion that they are happiest and healthiest with one romantic/sexual relationship. I think you’re asking your mono partner to treat your OSO as her own partner, like partnerhood is transitive. It’s not. She may simply not be wired to have those kind of partnerhood feelings towards another person. This is a completely valid choice/state of being, and deserves as much respect as your polyness does. Monogamy is not less while poly is more.

    If you aren’t willing to be untrue to your own nature, is it fair to ask her to be? Is it respectful of who she is?

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