There is little better way to begin an evening than at a very nice, if somewhat pricey, restaurant a short walk from dayo‘s apartment. One very delicious (pasta with mussels1 and clams, yum!) later, we headed back with happy tummies to her place, where some very nice vodka2 awaited.
And then, the kink.
One large roll of pallet wrap, two wicked sharp knives, a box of latex gloves, one small silver bullet vibrator, eight floggers3, and a giant-sized container of KY make for a very lovely evening indeed.
The floggers made the evening’s appetizer. “Strip.” I pushed her down onto the air mattress and stood behind her. A light, not too thuddy flogger for the opening, followed by two slightly heavier floggers simultaneously for a bit more of a warm-up, then a new, quite heavy flogger she had not yet deflowered for a bit more sensation…
Her backside was still slightly bruised from the previous evening in the dungeon, so it didn’t take long to have her squirming.
After the appetizer, the pallet wrap. Pallet wrap is awesome for quick, easy, no-wait bondage; a few turns around her arms and body had her arms firmly bound to her sides. “It feels like being hugged,” she said.
One quick push had her flat on her back on the mattress. The interesting thing about having your arms immobilized at your sides is that you can offer very little–for which read “no”–resistance to being manhandled around, and when you’re toppled over, you tend to go down quickly. “Whuf!”
I was on top of her in a flash, and entered her roughly. Her hands were free, poking out from under the pallet wrap, but she was quite unable to move aside from that…in effect, allowing her only enough freedom to help me take her, but not enough to resist.
“I’m going to come now.” There’s something that’s just really fun about telling her that while I’m on top of her, pinning her down, looking into her eyes. “Take it!”
There’s something even more fun about doing it more than once. Arms wrapped tightly around her, feeling her heat against me, answering the heat inside me…it’s intoxicating, and powerful. Three hard orgasms later, and I left her without warning, and watched her squirm on the bed.
“Quit pouting.” Pulling on a rubber glove. “You’ll get what you want soon enough.” Probing with the tip of one finger. “My goodness, you’re wet. I bet I could do this without any lube. But–” picking up the tube–“I like you squishy.”
My hand went in with no resistance at all. Normally, it takes a bit of work to get it fully inside her. Normally. Not tonight.
“Oh, my god!”
“Yes.” Pushing the bullet into her fingers. “Use this.”
“You’re in deep!”
“No, that’s not deep. This–”
“Nnngh!”
“–is deep.”
Some time later, when she was limp and sweaty and spent, and I had drawn my hand free and discarded the glove, we lay side by side and I caressed her hair. tongue and fingers running over breasts, through tight plastic. “You’ll like this.”
The tip of the knife, razor sharp, gliding over the curve of her breast bound and flattened by the pallet wrap.
“Oooh!”
Some folks like using dull knives for knife play. I do too, sometimes, but for dayoI have a curved, twin-bladed punch dagger sharp enough to slice a hydrogen atom free of an oxygen atom. Her back still carried a hair-fine tracery of faint white lines from the previous evening.
“Oh, that feels good!”
“Does it, now?”
A quick flip of the wrist and the blades sliced under the pallet wrap and out, cutting away a section of plastic film, revealing flesh, the underside of her breast. “And how about this?” Tips tracing along glowing skin, sheened with sweat, feather-light.
“Oh god!”
“Now hold still!” Blade slipping under cling wrap, slicing more free, tickling lightly over sensitized skin, following curves.
It took quite some time to remove the wrap, picking it apart and slicing it away bit by bit, chasing bare flesh with pointed steel.
“Oh! That was fun!”
“Time to put you to bed. And–” grinning “–I’m not finished with you yet.”
1 I’m not quite sure what’s up with me and mussels. When I was a kid, I had relatives living in Florida and New Jersey, so I was exposed to seafood from an early age. I’ve always loved things like crab, fish, scallops, and lobster, but for most of my life I’ve hated hated mussels.
Well, a few years ago, I developed a craving for mussels. Shelly and I went out to dinner, I ordered some, and they were mmm mmm tasty. I’ve loved them since.
2 One of the things I learned from serolynne is the difference between good vodka and bad vodka. There’s a significant distance between the two. Good vodka is one of life’s little treats. Bad vodka is like flaming battery acid with a chaser of ground glass.
3 Yes, eight. Why eight, you ask? Well, there’s a reason that dedicated perverts usually have large collections of floggers. They come in a startling array of sizes and styles, and each produces a unique sensation. They’re like spice to a chef; you can mix and match them to tailor just precisely the sensation you desire.
*needs a cold shower now*
Yum!
*needs a cold shower now*
Yum!
*fans self*
*fans self*
Thank you for sharing, kind Sir; that was quite arousing. 🙂
Whew!
Thank you for sharing, kind Sir; that was quite arousing. 🙂
Whew!
mm.. plastic wrap. You have just inspired my next party outfit.
You also inspired me to liberate some excellent knife work victim pics I have, but at the last minute I have decided they are a little too porno for general viewing.
Ah well.
You also inspired me to liberate some excellent knife work victim pics I have, but at the last minute I have decided they are a little too porno for general viewing.
Now that’s a shame…
mm.. plastic wrap. You have just inspired my next party outfit.
You also inspired me to liberate some excellent knife work victim pics I have, but at the last minute I have decided they are a little too porno for general viewing.
Ah well.
OMG Great story… a cold shower is defiantly needed.
OMG Great story… a cold shower is defiantly needed.
Wow – what a great evening. ^_^ Y’all have a lovely relationship.
Why, thank you! 🙂 I’m rather fond of our relationship myself.
Wow – what a great evening. ^_^ Y’all have a lovely relationship.
pix or it didn’t happenz
😀
NO:)
LOL
I had to try. 🙂
Quite alright. Palletwrap doesn’t do a thing for my figure *g*
pix or it didn’t happenz
😀
Goodness, sir. You’ve got me all hot and bothered now.
…where’s my boyfriend when I need him?
Goodness, sir. You’ve got me all hot and bothered now.
…where’s my boyfriend when I need him?
That was fucking fabulous. Thank you ever so much for taking the time to write it for us.
That was fucking fabulous. Thank you ever so much for taking the time to write it for us.
I have been experimenting with plastic wrap and agree with you completely. It is so much fun to watch her spin, wrapping it around herself, as I hold the roll.
Oh, it is. Definitely. I love making her complicit in her own bondage…
I have been experimenting with plastic wrap and agree with you completely. It is so much fun to watch her spin, wrapping it around herself, as I hold the roll.
Thank you! For sharing your love and joy so generously… How can you do this?! No, I don’t mean the knifes part 🙂 I mean the confidence. How can you make such gifts so freely? Doesn’t it make you vulnerable? Doesn’t it creep you out that some ‘anonymous’ people might read it? What if I’m someone you would really-really dislike — doesn’t it bother you that I read this? And how do you avoid the “what will the coworkers/bosses/family friends think?” trope?
Dude, you’re so free. Thank you.
– Ola
It does kind of creep me out. We’ve discussed his putting up stuff like this because I’m not *nearly* so public. All of my lj is friends locked, but I figure no one here knows what is fantasy versus not so it’s fairly safe.
Oh, I’m very sorry to hear that! I should’ve shut up… 🙁
If it helps any, I can be less anonymous (and in a couple of weeks I’ll have an LJ account and become even less anonymous, and then I’ll finally stop lurking around here feeling like a single clothed person on a nudist beach, creeping people out… :-))
Also, I don’t know if it helps, but tacit’s description of you and your love made me feel like looking at a river on a sunny day — you know, like the glimmering sunlight on the surface that makes your eyes hurt a bit, filling you with joy that is almost too great to bear… just the intense happiness of being alive, you know?
It’s interesting what you said about fantasies. So if it all were tacit’s fantasy, you’d be comfortable with him sharing it? Many people would feel the same fear, regardless.
Oh I’m not worried about any one person in general. It’s more than I’m a (generally) more private person in all aspects of my life, so seeing stuff like this is a bit challenging. Not bad, just challenging.
I tend to disagree with Franklin and Joreth on the value of putting everything out for public display. It’s the right decision for them, but not necessarily for everyone. I make the choices I do because it allows me to do other things that bring value to my life – for me, being public about sex (other than vicariously through tacit) isn’t as high a priority as building my career or being public about being goth.
As far as fantasy goes, yes, I think it makes a difference – not really for any concrete reason other than my brain is wierd:)
Yes, this is exactly the questions I’m trying to sort out: what are the reasons we have for wanting to keep private things private? Are they good reasons? What is the value of being public? And how do we decide what’s private, anyway?
What you said is the “social equilibrium” kind of reason — you want to keep your sex life private, because, in the current world, the majority of people look with contempt at these who are open about such things, and some of these people decide who gets promoted and who gets fired, and they might unconsciously (or even consciously!) incorporate their contempt into their professional decisions. The choice between openness and career is forced on you only by the fact that openness is not the current equilibrium. Right?
I wonder, is that your only reason? If, say, 10 years from now, enough people will open their souls on the web that it will be considered absolutely normal to do so — then you’d be OK with sharing such things?
The problem with the “social equilibrium” method is that, as long as *everyone* is hiding, there will never come a day when mainstream society *won’t* ” look with contempt at these who are open about such things” because everyone is hiding.
This doesn’t mean that I (or) think that everyone should be out to the same degree that we are at this time. There are, after all, very real repurcussions for being out.
What this means is that I think everyone who can be this out, should be, for the sake of eliminating the fear and discrimination.
There is also a difference between being “out” and which details are shared and which are omitted. The subject of being out is a slightly different topic than what we’ve been discussing below, with regards to intimate details and public sharing.
it’s not that hard when you A) don’t care what other people think and B) design your life to avoid having anyone who might use the information against you have the kind of power to actually use the information against you.
Family is easy enough – most family members don’t want to know this kind of stuff, whether they are aware the journals and websites exist or not, and will tend to not read the juicy details even if they come across them.
By “use the information against you” you mean things like getting you fired or something. But for me, the fear is different… it’s more about vulnerability. It’s the fear of getting misunderstood, mainly.
It’s not that you don’t care what people think; you care about what some people think, but these people will understand correctly anyway, and those who might not – you don’t care about. Is that it?
But that’s not the whole picture either. There are things that neither you nor tacit write about — intimate things like the details of a painful breakup. And I suspect that you don’t write about these things for much of the same reasons that other people don’t share details of their sex life. It’s strange, isn’t it? Some people will share the most painful, intimate details of their divorce, but they will say nothing about sex… and for some, it’s the opposite. How do you decide what you feel comfortable sharing and what you don’t? Have you ever tried to analyze the emotions involved, what they are based upon?
– Ola
Actually, I did write about a painful breakup. I’ve written about several, the most notable was my Confronting The Monsters post, but there have been a few others. There isn’t anything that I can think of that I’m not comfortable sharing. What gets the most “air time”, if you will, is based on what matters most to me and what is taking my attention at the moment, not what’s most “comfortable” to share. I talk about my family, my relationships, my work, TV shows I watch, politics, sex, religion, science, my favorite comic strips … I think I don’t talk about my cats very much online because 1) I don’t think people much care and 2) they’re boring cats. They don’t do anything but sleep and eat and poop.
I haven’t had any breakups in the last year or so, so I haven’t written about any. I haven’t had very much bad stuff happen lately either, so what makes it into my journal lately is just stuff that makes me angry because that is what is taking up my attention at the moment, what with all the political stuff going on and constantly getting harassed on dating sites. What I don’t tend to write about is a hourly log of how I spend my time, mostly because it’s not interesting. No one really wants to hear about my diet of TV dinners or that I slept in until 3 PM yesterday. But I will talk about it if it comes up in conversation and someone wants to know, it’s just not at the forefront of my mind and I have other topics more important to me taking my attention to be writing journal entries about.
But I do write about breakups and intimate moments and things that have nothing to do with sex. When it happens and when it’s something important. Not whether it’s “comfortable” or not.
And I have seen write about breakups too, but he has several thousand posts, so I wouldn’t be surprised to hear that someone missed one or two.
Doh!
That was me – I’m on someone else’s computer and forgot that I wasn’t automatically logged in.
Re: Doh!
I guess I rushed to conclusions when I read your “I’m Broken” post. Now I understand that you probably will talk about that, too, eventually — you just like to sort things out in your head first and only then share your insights… right?
I haven’t read everything you wrote — yet. As to tacit — I actually did. Yes, all the few thousand posts 🙂
And the way he discussed his divorce in LJ was very illuminating — he didn’t. That was an “Aha!” moment for me, I thought “Hmm, so that’s what you don’t write about. Interesting… And man, you’re so right.” So, for tacit, some things won’t be shared, even if they are very important to his life; he’ll call them “airing dirty laundry in public”.
That’s not the case with you, according to what you just said: you can share anything, as long as you change the names of the people involved… but for tacit, some things are (and will remain!) private.
Thankfully, kinky sex is not among them 🙂
Re: Doh!
Actually, he talks quite openly about his divorce, in several venues. He might not have made a LiveJournal post specifically, but he’s certainly been open about it in forums and in public discussion groups.
Re: Doh!
Can you give me some links, please? I mean, to forums where tacit hangs out?
[Unless he’s majorly creeped out by the idea that I like him and want to get to know him better and so I just read everything he writes in public. I should hope that he’s not creeped out, though; because that’s kind of the idea of writing and being public about who you are. So that people could get to know you without you having to spend time on them. Well, OK, that’s one of the ideas… :-)]
Re: Doh!
The places where you can usually find me include the OK Cupid forums, the MacFixIt forums, and of course here. 🙂
Re: Doh!
Tacit is all over the internet, on OKC, on Myspace, on a few LJ groups, and a bunch of Yahoo groups, on literotica, his own half-dozen websites. I don’t have the specific urls to all the specific threads he’s ever commented on (and many of them were email groups, so there wouldn’t be a url to that thread anyway), but if it has to do with polyamory, bdsm, computers, transhumanism, and probably a few things I don’t know about, you’ll most likely find him there. He has posted about some of the groups and forums he’s on in the past, as they sometimes provide fodder for this LJ.
Re: Doh!
Thanks! 🙂
Re: Doh!
Something else that I completely neglected to touch upon while this thread was still going is the concept of other people’s privacy.
The primary reason for omitting details of “personal” topics, for me (and a lot of the time for) is not because a topic is too personal or too private or too intimate for me, but because it includes details about other people, and I respect other people’s right to choose privacy.
For example, I might omit details or neglect to talk about my most recent breakup on my LJ, not because it’s too personal for me, but because my ex may not want me to comment on it in a public venue. Although I do my best to try and be objective when relating a story, chances are, if I felt wronged in any particular way, my version of the story is going to reflect that.
I tend to get along well with my exes, so I see no need, nor justification, for publicly declaring why I think my hypothetical ex was an idiot or an asshole in that situation, even if I think I also contributed to the situation. Even if I’m not on such friendly terms, there’s probably a pretty good chance we might still have overlapping social circles, and I am adamantly opposed to dragging friends into a he-said-she-said-take-sides battle. So the less said publicly, in this regard, the better for social peace. Now, I might talk to individual friends (mutual or not) in a one-on-one setting, because that’s partially what friends are for, but if I think or know that someone might get hurt or offended that I spoke of them on the internet in an identifiable way, I try to avoid it for their sake – not mine.
I have made the occasional exception when I thought the lesson I learned was important enough to share, and I do take care to change names and otherwise protect their identity if possible.
But, I’ve been thinking of this topic, both during our dialog and since, and I honestly cannot come up with any topic that I’m not willing to discuss unless I feel some need for discretion out of respect for someone else’s privacy. When talking to about this thread, pretty much any situation he admitted to not discussing publicly had similar reasoning for why he did not discuss it publicly.
I’m not quite sure I understand the questions, honestly. It really wouldn’t occur to me to be bothered by the fact that anonymous people read this; presumably, they must have some interest in the subject, else they wouldn’t be, right?
I don’t think there’s really anyone I dislike all that much, and even if there were, it seems strange to me to allow someone I dislike to control my decisions. If I were to change my behavior on account of what that person might or might not see, isn’t that turning over personal power to that person?
The coworkers/bosses thing is, fortunately, not an issue for me. I’m part owner of the company I work for, and the majority partners are already aware of my nontraditional views of sex and relationships–they Googled me before they brought me on board. So that part’s a non-issue, for me. I can understand why it’s a potential issue for other folks, though, and I wouldn’t presume to tell everyone else what to do or how open to be. (I do think that those of us who are in nontraditional relationships and are open about it actually do a service to those who are in nontraditional relationships but can’t be open about it the more of us who are open, the harder it becomes for society to implement systematic discrimination against all of us. But that’s a completely different issue altogether.)
The idea that friends might read it, and that would be a bad thing, also seems strange to me. A friend is someone you share your life with; what on earth is the point of having a friend you need to self-censor around? Doesn’t that defeat the whole point of friendship?
Right. Absolutely. Correct on every point. You helped me narrow down what is it exactly that screams “No! No! Don’t do it!” in the back of my head, when I think about writing on certain topics. It’s not about friends, and it’s not about obnoxious people. Because, as you said — friends will understand, and obnoxious people shouldn’t be taken into consideration.
It’s about potential friends. People whom I like and respect, but who still don’t know me very well. People with whom I only hope to develop something, and I’m really afraid to screw it up. Then, communication is the key; but if I try to communicate while ignoring the accepted social norms of behavior, I will probably be misunderstood. It’s like trying to speak while disagreeing on what some of the words should mean. Sure, it can work (that’s how words change meaning) — but usually it works in the long run while screwing you up in the short run. And not discussing certain topics in public is a social norm — I can disagree with it and ignore it, but then I’ll be misunderstood.
Damn, I can’t go into details to explain it, because it’s a public forum 🙂
But I see my “monster” more clearly now; and definitely, some of my fears are irrational.
I don’t see the problem with “potential friends” either. If they’re the type to run screaming when they hear something controversial about me, then I’m glad to find that out before I become too emotionally invested in them and it hurts when they leave.
I consider my blatent openness to be a great screening system for potential friends. If they can’t take me as I am, if I have to “ease them into it” or pussyfoot around those topics that are the most meaningful to me (which, any topic I might be afraid of how they would respond are, pretty much by definition, meaningful), then I want to know that right up front.
It’s not that simple. You, for example: remember that argument you had with dancingguy about compliments? You explained to him yourself, very convincingly, how if someone gives you a compliment about your body, you’ll just lose interest. You won’t run screaming; you’ll lose interest. You understand that not everyone who does this has to be an asshole; you understand that there is a chance that such a guy might, for example, be actually very familiar with the subject of objectification and all, only that he strongly disagrees with you, and he tries to reclaim the idea of admiring someone’s beauty without implied disrespect. But it doesn’t matter — because you and him are never going to have that conversation, and you’re never going to find out who he is and why he believes what he believes — because you’re going to filter him out and talk to someone else instead. And you would be right to do so, too — because life is short and we use our time to talk to people we like — and so, inevitably, some people will simply not get a second chance.
And that’s exactly what other people do to us. They filter us out based on little information; therefore, communication in an early stage is much more problematic. You just can’t afford to send wrong signals. You’re probably thinking now “But how can I send wrong signals if I’m being brutally honest?!” but this is exactly the catch: you can. It took me long time to understand this — I’m also brutally honest by nature. What is important is not what you say or do, but how the other person interpretes what you say or do. You can mean one thing, but they’ll hear something totally different. And then they’ll filter you out — not by who you are, but by who you are not.
And the areas in which such communication problems are especially prone to arise are: violation of accepted social norms; and/or: complex issues. Important, personal topics are often complex — in the sense they take long time to explain right, and if you don’t have that time, then you’ll explain them wrong, and the person will have a wrong picture of you. So, yes — the best thing to do is to “pussyfoot” around these topics, until you trust that the person likes you enough to agree to refrain from judgement until you are both sure that he understood you correctly. And this is not likely to happen in the beginning of a relationship.
If by this point you stopped seeing how this relates to discussing intimate things on the Internet, I can explain 🙂
I am OK with the idea of other people filtering me out, even if I might be interested in them. It doesn’t hurt my feelings to have someone not be interested in me, no matter what the reason. If they are going to dismiss me because he misinterpreted me, then he doesn’t get me and we’ll probably have communication issues in our relationship, should we ever start one.
The people I prefer to get involved with are people who get me, brutal honesty and all. There is nothing wrong with people not being interested in me. It doesn’t hurt my feelings to have people think I’m ugly or bitchy or rude or any other subjective criteria. Therefore it’s not a problem being this open and discussing intimate things on the internet, because I don’t mind people not being interested in me – even when I’m interested in them. If they’re not, they’re not, and that’s that.
Frankly, I can afford to send wrong signals, because I’m not afraid of being alone and I’m more interested in quality than quanity.
I don’t tend to get involved with people I just met and who are more likely to misinterpret what I’m saying. I prefer to get involved with people who have been friends, or at least part of my social circle, for a while. Every time I do rush things like that, it blows up pretty spectacularly. If they are a friend first, they’re more likely to have better tools for not misinterpreting me. If they’re part of my social circle, they’ll have more opportunity to learn that their original idea of me was a misconception as our social activities bring us into regular contact with each other.
So, for me, it still is that simple.
Congratulations to both of you with the results of your elections! (Well, OK, except for that California thing…)
On the point: you know what? I think you’re right.
Well, OK, I don’t 100% agree with that whole “If I’m trying to communicate and I’m being misunderstood then it’s either their problem or just wasn’t meant to be, but it’s definitely not my problem” thing, but I like your approach much more than the “If a cool and smart person does not like me then either I’m stupid and not likeable or my communication skills suck” approach, which more or less describes my take on it…
An important thing I understood from this conversation is that this is what was in the back of my head the entire time; also, my fear of misunderstandings is way too big. This deal that sometimes two nice people don’t understand each other, and the misunderstadning is never resolved — it’s part of life. I really have to take it easier…
Just a minor note:
I don’t actually think “well, that’s their problem” or “it just wasn’t meant to be”. First of all, communication takes two people, so it’s not just “their problem”, it’s just that I don’t make a big deal about it when things are early on, such as strangers or *potential* partners. If something is really important to me that I try to get a concept across, I will actually try a few times before I give up. I’m just saying that someone not liking me doesn’t matter that much to me in the grand scheme of things.
If the relationship has already progressed to where they mean something to me, we’ve already gotten past most of the major hurdles like my brutal honesty or what I write on the internet, and they’re not likely to just pick up and run over a misunderstanding without trying to talk to me about it first, where I’ll have the opportunity to clarify.
I also don’t believe in any “meant to be”. So that helps a great deal with not being hurt when someone doesn’t like me. I’m not saying it never hurts to be rejected, but it’s not the end of the world. It’s not even a lost day crying.
I do try hard to make people understand me, I will attempt to say things a couple of different ways when I’m trying to get a concept across. Take this conversation, for instance. But I also know, as you just pointed out, that sometimes people just don’t get each other, and that’s OK. There are 6 billion people on this planet. I don’t have time for everyone, they don’t have time for me. So someone rejecting me out of hand because they don’t like something I said on the internet is simply one less person to take up my time only for me to learn that we’re not compatible later on.
The sooner I find out we’re not compatible, the better off I am, because that leaves me more time for those who *are* compatible with me, including the loved ones already in my life.
But basically, I think you’re getting much closer to understand where I, at least, am coming from, and I think to where is coming from, although I don’t like to speak for him, as our views are not 100% exactly the same.
t’s about potential friends. People whom I like and respect, but who still don’t know me very well. People with whom I only hope to develop something, and I’m really afraid to screw it up. Then, communication is the key; but if I try to communicate while ignoring the accepted social norms of behavior, I will probably be misunderstood.
Hmm. That’s an interesting point, though one I seem to approach from the opposite end.
I am very selective about my friends. I want and value only friends who are freethinking, and openminded, who do not accept social norms simply because they are social norms, who understand non-traditional sex and relationships, that sort of thing.
By being open about my own non-traditional sexual and relationship life, I find that I tend to attract people with those qualities to me. The folks who see me, or read the things I write, and respond to those things, tend to be the folks who have the qualities I want and value in a friend. The more likely a person is to misunderstand or to be put off by these things, the less likely that person is to have these qualities.
Openness acts as its own filter; it’s a mechanism for quickly finding those people who are most likely to be the kins of friends I want to have. I doubt, for example, that there are very many sexually repressive Evangelicals reading my blog, and that suits me fine.
But let’s flip that on its head and look at the other side. Say you constrain your interaction with the world at large to what you believe the social norms o be, and let’s say that other people also do the same thing. How will you recognize the folks that share your values and proclivities? They’re busy conforming to their perceptions of social norms, too, right? If neither you nor your kinky neighbor ever works up the nerve to mention that you’re kinky, how will you recognize one another?
How, for that matter, if everyone’s hiding those things that they believe might violate perceived social norms, can you really even tell what the social norms ARE? If you have a group of 100 people, and 50 of them are kinky, but nobody talks about it and nobody even knows about it because all 50 of them are interacting with everyone else only according to the most conservatives of social norms, then how are those fifty people going to find each other, and what does the “social norm” even mean? In that thought experiment, half of the people are behaving in a way that doesn’t express the reality of who they are; if they became more open, doesn’t that mean that the “social norm” would change, by definition? Is it actually a social norm if it doesn’t even reflect the values of a majority of the people to begin with?
One of the things that I’ve learned by being as open as I am is that kinky people are everywhere, Poly kinky BDSMers are, I think, far, far more common than everyone believes; it’s just that you can’t recognize a lot of ’em ’cause they’re too busy trying not to be open. 🙂
As usual, you’ve stated what I was trying to say in a much more understandable manner.
The main point I was trying to get across was Openness acts as its own filter; it’s a mechanism for quickly finding those people who are most likely to be the kins of friends I want to have. This is why it doesn’t bother me to have people not like me based on what I say online. If they’re bothered by my aggressive honesty, or by my kinkiness or polyness or my tomboyishness, or whatever, then they’re not likely to want to be my friend, and they’re not likely to be the kind of friend I want to have. So this weeds them out before I’ve had a chance to become so heavily invested in them that it actually does hurt when they leave.
Your other point is exactly why I believe all “alternative-lifestyle” people who can afford to be out, should be out. If no one is open about who they are, how will we ever find each other? And if no one knows that they’re not the only one, how can we expect our society to change in the direction of being more accepting towards us?
Oh, no, now you didn’t understand me. I’m very far from thinking that we should always conform to the perceived social norms. I certainly don’t do it myself. I’m very open about being poly, for example; and I 100% agree with all your points about the values of openness, particularly for non-traditional cultures. Poly, actually, makes a pretty bad example for what I had in mind, because it can be explained pretty easily — compared to some other things. You just say you’re polyamorous, and if they want to know what it means, you tell. It’s not a cause of misunderstandings — not in the way I mean.
The main thing is this: it’s not that I’m bothered that certain people will learn certain things about me — on the contrary, I want to make it as easy as possible for all people to learn things about me (for all the important reasons you said). But, paradoxically, the way to make it happen is to delay openness on certain issues until the relationship develops sufficiently. Notice I said “delay”, not “forego”! If you are being open from the start, people might “learn” things that are not actually true. I’ll have to show it on some real examples:
Consider a hypothetical guy, Pete who saw joreth’s profile on okcupid, read her journal and decided that she is really, really cool. And smart. And interesting. And really sexy, too. He loves her photos — he thinks her face and body are absolutely gorgeous. Imagine now that our Pete meets joreth for the first time at a con… he sees her in her Leila and has to swallow. All he can think is: “WOW”. But he’s a smart guy. And so he knows when not to be open — about certain things. He knows that the last thing he should do right now is to say exactly how he feels. So he’ll compliment her costume and begin a conversation about her latest journal post. Eventually, if all goes well, he will let her know everything. But not until he’ll be reasonably sure that she will understand his feelings for what they really are. If he says it right now, he is going to be misunderstood; and joreth is important enough for him to really, really not want to screw it up.
A different example, about kink: imagine a gay guy, Jim, who falls in love with Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. In addition to being fascinated with this beautiful, complex art, he also finds it really hot. For him, the battle for dominance of each other’s body can be an intense erotic experience. OK… but should he detail in his public journal his sexual fantasies about Royce Gracie putting him in a rear naked choke? A resounding, NO! Because if his instructor and training partners learn about this… shit will hit the fan. They will totally misunderstand it. Most of them will be appalled by the perceived disrespect for the sport (or for Royce) — and they will be totally wrong, because Jim has tons of respect. Many of them will be afraid that he will harass them, or see his kink as an invitation to harass him. The funny thing: Jim believes that if only they all knew exactly what is going on in his head, most of them would have no problem at all with it. The problem is that the whole issue is complex and subtle, and people just really tend to misunderstand it. So, Jim will come out — to his close friends — but all the rest will have to wait.
[continued]
I beg to differ about your example concerning me.
First of all, I automatically assume that anyone who is interested in me romantically will find me attractive, so him “delaying” telling me that he finds me attractive doesn’t do anything, since I’ve already assumed he does.
What I object to is people finding me nothing *but* attractive. And anyone who cannot think of anything to say to me except “ur hot” is a reasonable indication that he holds physical attractiveness higher in value than I do.
What I also object to is anyone who tells me “ur hot” when I explicitly request not to. I never hold anyone permanently responsible for doing or saying something that I have never explicitly said not to do. That would be unreasonable. I can’t expect anyone to read my mind, so if I haven’t said so yet, you get a free pass this time.
So when I get so upset at people emailing me with “ur hot”, it’s only partially because of my attitude about physical appearance. Mostly, it’s because this person has just indicated to me that he does not listen to what I say and does not care for my feelings. And what *doesn’t* make it into the public journals are all the emails I get where someone did *not* piss me off, many of which do compliment me on my physical appearance.
So, in your example, Pete not telling me that he is attracted to me only results in me not knowing that he is considering me as a potential partner – which will most likely result in me writing him off because I’m not getting any indication that he’s interested.
If he had told me at the time, I could respond appropriately. The biggest way to screw something up with me is to not tell me something – that’s a far less forgivable offense than simply complimenting me.
You’re right. When I wrote about Pete meeting you for the first time, I implicitly assumed that this meeting was, in fact, the first interaction he had with you (that until this meeting he only read you, without trying to contact in any way). But now when I think about it — why would that be the case? If he liked you so much based on your journal, he should have written an email first, or commented on your journal, or something. That way, he wouldn’t create a situation in which potential misunderstandings could occur.
So, yes, when I look at the example from this point of view, it actually demonstrates how being open as early as possible helps avoid misunderstandings. You’re right – my bad 🙂
A last example: imagine a guy, John, who is pathetically in love with a woman he’s never seen or spoken with in real life. He read her books; and was blown away by her wisdom and character. Since then, he listened to every interview she gave and recorded every show she appeared on. He dreams about her, and has a collection of her photos. He sounds typical, right? A pathetic loser, in love with a celebrity. Immature, has no life, doesn’t understand what real intimacy is, unable to distinguish real life and fantasy… you could go on. But it would all be wrong. All these things would be correct for 99.9% of such cases – but Johnny is an exception to the rule. And in order to understand that he is not, in fact, all of the above, you would have to know him very well. There are just no shortcuts in this case. You would have to be his close friend in order to know that he actually has a life – and he’s smart and happy and confident and has wonderful relationships. You would then have to read all these books that meant so much to him, and listen to him explaining his feelings. You’d have to see for yourself that, as incredible as it sounds, John actually loves a real person, and not a fantasy. And only then you’d say: “You know what, man? You’re right. She’s just chock-full of awesome. And you have my sympathy… although I’m also happy for you.”
And that’s why only John’s close friends know about his crush. He’s extremely careful when he discusses the ideas from her books in his online journal. He knows that if he’s not careful, all people — including HER, if she ever visits his site — would think he is a pathetic loser. And he doesn’t want that.
Sorry for the long post, I just wanted to show what I meant – how honesty and openness about intimate and complex things, expressed prematurely, can sometimes block paths to intimacy instead of opening them.
John does not love a real person. He can’t. He doesn’t know her. He “loves” a character in his head that he has created based on her books. His character might be remarkably similar to the real person, but he does not, in fact, know her.
Given the right circumstances, it might grow into a real love. But without having spoken to her even once, he does not *know* her, even as much as anyone can “know” anyone else.
Yes, you’re right — I wasn’t clear enough about that. Really knowing a person takes years of *good* communication. All this long process of “getting to know someone” is, in fact, creating a character in our head, based on all the information we are given. As time passes and we have more and more information, we update this “model” or “character” based on new evidence, and it gets closer and closer to reality (although, as Franklin wrote somewhere, even after many years we still can have a remarkably wrong model).
What I meant is that John’s crush is just as valid as any other crush — of course the information he has is extremely limited, but so it usually is when one only falls in love! He himself understands that there are many ways in which he could be wrong about her; problem is, he doesn’t have access to information that might change his current evaluation. He can’t get to know her. And what he knows so far blew him away.
My point was that it takes a lot of information to understand that his particular crush is not a sign of immaturity, or other psychological problems that come to mind when one first hears about it. That’s why he’s so shy about it — he doesn’t want to create a false impression.
A better understanding of himself and what a “crush” is and is not would be much more beneficial to avoiding creating a false impression than simply not talking about it at all.
Fans often admit their crushes or admiration of celebrities and it’s not considered creepy. As long as John understands that what he feels is an admiration for a person that he *does not know and might not turn out to be who he expects*, his admission of his crush might even *prompt* a meeting which could turn into the realization of his limerance.
So, once again, communication and honesty (including and especially with oneself) is still the better option, particularly with paired with an education and understanding of the human condition.
From what I heard, it usually is. Considered, I mean. Admiration — no, but a crush — yes. Either creepy, or immature/silly, or both. But you’re right nevertheless… I just understood something: the habit of being brutally open about intimate things pushes you to be who you want to be. Because if you have that habit, and then you feel ashamed about sharing something — you start digging into the sources of that shame, and either find a legitimate cause, a problem that you should deal with, or an irrational fear that you drag out to the light and fight head on. Either way, you have no choice but to eventually become confident and at peace with yourself — and then to work in order to keep that peace.
You know what I really like about you, Shara? You just don’t let go 🙂 If you disagree with something, you just hammer on it until understanding is reached. I think that it is totally awesome!
I can’t remember when was the last conversation that changed my mind about something important. This one has. Moreover, unlike some other times, I think that my actual behavior is going to change as a result 🙂 (although that will require some willpower and courage on my part… and I’m also sure I’ll be hurt quite a few times). But it’s worth it. You’re right. It’s all worth it.
Thank you,
Ola
P.S. I agree 100% about the need to protect other people’s privacy, of course…
I’m so glad you’re appreciative – it occurred to me a couple of posts ago that my constant responses could be viewed as badgering you, and I meant to say something about it, but I forgot. It’s just that this is a complex concept and not easy to get across in a few journal posts. It’s much easier in a verbal dialog when you can add vocal inflection and body language, and also to respond immediately.
Yes, I think you’ve found one of the main reasons why brutal honesty is so important – it’s not just honesty with others, but honesty with oneself. It’s very easy to lie to oneself when you’re already in the habit of lying or hiding to others. When you make yourself be honest to others, you can’t hide from yourself. Either you will see yourself, or someone else will and point it out to you.
That’s also one of the benefits to polyamory (or a good, trustworthy, honest social circle) – it’s harder to hide from additional pairs of eyes.
As has said before, being a secure person takes practice, just as being insecure takes practice – we just don’t always realize that we’re “practicing” our insecurities. So yes, it will be difficult at first, and you will get hurt. But I’ve found that we get hurt anyway. The hurt is merely what happens in between the good stuff 🙂
Thank you! For sharing your love and joy so generously… How can you do this?! No, I don’t mean the knifes part 🙂 I mean the confidence. How can you make such gifts so freely? Doesn’t it make you vulnerable? Doesn’t it creep you out that some ‘anonymous’ people might read it? What if I’m someone you would really-really dislike — doesn’t it bother you that I read this? And how do you avoid the “what will the coworkers/bosses/family friends think?” trope?
Dude, you’re so free. Thank you.
– Ola
It does kind of creep me out. We’ve discussed his putting up stuff like this because I’m not *nearly* so public. All of my lj is friends locked, but I figure no one here knows what is fantasy versus not so it’s fairly safe.
NO:)
Are you sure that’s how it happened? I certainly didn’t see any bruises or marks later. And I don’t think I’ve even seen you be forceful…
You’ve never seen many sides of me. Did you ask to see the marks from the knife? 😛
You’ve never seen be forceful?
Have you met?
Are you sure that’s how it happened? I certainly didn’t see any bruises or marks later. And I don’t think I’ve even seen you be forceful…
You’ve never seen many sides of me. Did you ask to see the marks from the knife? 😛
it’s not that hard when you A) don’t care what other people think and B) design your life to avoid having anyone who might use the information against you have the kind of power to actually use the information against you.
Family is easy enough – most family members don’t want to know this kind of stuff, whether they are aware the journals and websites exist or not, and will tend to not read the juicy details even if they come across them.
You’ve never seen be forceful?
Have you met?
LOL
I had to try. 🙂
Damn. Big Daddy is in Wisconsin and I’m sitting here all alone being the voyeur to your exhibitionism. So jealous.
At the very least, I hope I can serve as an inspiration for the next time you two are together…
Damn. Big Daddy is in Wisconsin and I’m sitting here all alone being the voyeur to your exhibitionism. So jealous.
Quite alright. Palletwrap doesn’t do a thing for my figure *g*
By “use the information against you” you mean things like getting you fired or something. But for me, the fear is different… it’s more about vulnerability. It’s the fear of getting misunderstood, mainly.
It’s not that you don’t care what people think; you care about what some people think, but these people will understand correctly anyway, and those who might not – you don’t care about. Is that it?
But that’s not the whole picture either. There are things that neither you nor tacit write about — intimate things like the details of a painful breakup. And I suspect that you don’t write about these things for much of the same reasons that other people don’t share details of their sex life. It’s strange, isn’t it? Some people will share the most painful, intimate details of their divorce, but they will say nothing about sex… and for some, it’s the opposite. How do you decide what you feel comfortable sharing and what you don’t? Have you ever tried to analyze the emotions involved, what they are based upon?
– Ola
Oh, I’m very sorry to hear that! I should’ve shut up… 🙁
If it helps any, I can be less anonymous (and in a couple of weeks I’ll have an LJ account and become even less anonymous, and then I’ll finally stop lurking around here feeling like a single clothed person on a nudist beach, creeping people out… :-))
Also, I don’t know if it helps, but tacit’s description of you and your love made me feel like looking at a river on a sunny day — you know, like the glimmering sunlight on the surface that makes your eyes hurt a bit, filling you with joy that is almost too great to bear… just the intense happiness of being alive, you know?
It’s interesting what you said about fantasies. So if it all were tacit’s fantasy, you’d be comfortable with him sharing it? Many people would feel the same fear, regardless.
Actually, I did write about a painful breakup. I’ve written about several, the most notable was my Confronting The Monsters post, but there have been a few others. There isn’t anything that I can think of that I’m not comfortable sharing. What gets the most “air time”, if you will, is based on what matters most to me and what is taking my attention at the moment, not what’s most “comfortable” to share. I talk about my family, my relationships, my work, TV shows I watch, politics, sex, religion, science, my favorite comic strips … I think I don’t talk about my cats very much online because 1) I don’t think people much care and 2) they’re boring cats. They don’t do anything but sleep and eat and poop.
I haven’t had any breakups in the last year or so, so I haven’t written about any. I haven’t had very much bad stuff happen lately either, so what makes it into my journal lately is just stuff that makes me angry because that is what is taking up my attention at the moment, what with all the political stuff going on and constantly getting harassed on dating sites. What I don’t tend to write about is a hourly log of how I spend my time, mostly because it’s not interesting. No one really wants to hear about my diet of TV dinners or that I slept in until 3 PM yesterday. But I will talk about it if it comes up in conversation and someone wants to know, it’s just not at the forefront of my mind and I have other topics more important to me taking my attention to be writing journal entries about.
But I do write about breakups and intimate moments and things that have nothing to do with sex. When it happens and when it’s something important. Not whether it’s “comfortable” or not.
And I have seen write about breakups too, but he has several thousand posts, so I wouldn’t be surprised to hear that someone missed one or two.
Doh!
That was me – I’m on someone else’s computer and forgot that I wasn’t automatically logged in.
Oh I’m not worried about any one person in general. It’s more than I’m a (generally) more private person in all aspects of my life, so seeing stuff like this is a bit challenging. Not bad, just challenging.
I tend to disagree with Franklin and Joreth on the value of putting everything out for public display. It’s the right decision for them, but not necessarily for everyone. I make the choices I do because it allows me to do other things that bring value to my life – for me, being public about sex (other than vicariously through tacit) isn’t as high a priority as building my career or being public about being goth.
As far as fantasy goes, yes, I think it makes a difference – not really for any concrete reason other than my brain is wierd:)
Mmmmmmhmmmmm…. lovely.
Why thank you! 🙂
Mmmmmmhmmmmm…. lovely.
Yes, this is exactly the questions I’m trying to sort out: what are the reasons we have for wanting to keep private things private? Are they good reasons? What is the value of being public? And how do we decide what’s private, anyway?
What you said is the “social equilibrium” kind of reason — you want to keep your sex life private, because, in the current world, the majority of people look with contempt at these who are open about such things, and some of these people decide who gets promoted and who gets fired, and they might unconsciously (or even consciously!) incorporate their contempt into their professional decisions. The choice between openness and career is forced on you only by the fact that openness is not the current equilibrium. Right?
I wonder, is that your only reason? If, say, 10 years from now, enough people will open their souls on the web that it will be considered absolutely normal to do so — then you’d be OK with sharing such things?
You also inspired me to liberate some excellent knife work victim pics I have, but at the last minute I have decided they are a little too porno for general viewing.
Now that’s a shame…
Why, thank you! 🙂 I’m rather fond of our relationship myself.
Oh, it is. Definitely. I love making her complicit in her own bondage…
I’m not quite sure I understand the questions, honestly. It really wouldn’t occur to me to be bothered by the fact that anonymous people read this; presumably, they must have some interest in the subject, else they wouldn’t be, right?
I don’t think there’s really anyone I dislike all that much, and even if there were, it seems strange to me to allow someone I dislike to control my decisions. If I were to change my behavior on account of what that person might or might not see, isn’t that turning over personal power to that person?
The coworkers/bosses thing is, fortunately, not an issue for me. I’m part owner of the company I work for, and the majority partners are already aware of my nontraditional views of sex and relationships–they Googled me before they brought me on board. So that part’s a non-issue, for me. I can understand why it’s a potential issue for other folks, though, and I wouldn’t presume to tell everyone else what to do or how open to be. (I do think that those of us who are in nontraditional relationships and are open about it actually do a service to those who are in nontraditional relationships but can’t be open about it the more of us who are open, the harder it becomes for society to implement systematic discrimination against all of us. But that’s a completely different issue altogether.)
The idea that friends might read it, and that would be a bad thing, also seems strange to me. A friend is someone you share your life with; what on earth is the point of having a friend you need to self-censor around? Doesn’t that defeat the whole point of friendship?
Why thank you! 🙂
At the very least, I hope I can serve as an inspiration for the next time you two are together…
Re: Doh!
I guess I rushed to conclusions when I read your “I’m Broken” post. Now I understand that you probably will talk about that, too, eventually — you just like to sort things out in your head first and only then share your insights… right?
I haven’t read everything you wrote — yet. As to tacit — I actually did. Yes, all the few thousand posts 🙂
And the way he discussed his divorce in LJ was very illuminating — he didn’t. That was an “Aha!” moment for me, I thought “Hmm, so that’s what you don’t write about. Interesting… And man, you’re so right.” So, for tacit, some things won’t be shared, even if they are very important to his life; he’ll call them “airing dirty laundry in public”.
That’s not the case with you, according to what you just said: you can share anything, as long as you change the names of the people involved… but for tacit, some things are (and will remain!) private.
Thankfully, kinky sex is not among them 🙂
Right. Absolutely. Correct on every point. You helped me narrow down what is it exactly that screams “No! No! Don’t do it!” in the back of my head, when I think about writing on certain topics. It’s not about friends, and it’s not about obnoxious people. Because, as you said — friends will understand, and obnoxious people shouldn’t be taken into consideration.
It’s about potential friends. People whom I like and respect, but who still don’t know me very well. People with whom I only hope to develop something, and I’m really afraid to screw it up. Then, communication is the key; but if I try to communicate while ignoring the accepted social norms of behavior, I will probably be misunderstood. It’s like trying to speak while disagreeing on what some of the words should mean. Sure, it can work (that’s how words change meaning) — but usually it works in the long run while screwing you up in the short run. And not discussing certain topics in public is a social norm — I can disagree with it and ignore it, but then I’ll be misunderstood.
Damn, I can’t go into details to explain it, because it’s a public forum 🙂
But I see my “monster” more clearly now; and definitely, some of my fears are irrational.
Re: Doh!
Actually, he talks quite openly about his divorce, in several venues. He might not have made a LiveJournal post specifically, but he’s certainly been open about it in forums and in public discussion groups.
I don’t see the problem with “potential friends” either. If they’re the type to run screaming when they hear something controversial about me, then I’m glad to find that out before I become too emotionally invested in them and it hurts when they leave.
I consider my blatent openness to be a great screening system for potential friends. If they can’t take me as I am, if I have to “ease them into it” or pussyfoot around those topics that are the most meaningful to me (which, any topic I might be afraid of how they would respond are, pretty much by definition, meaningful), then I want to know that right up front.
hot. I did a similar show at the chamber a few times.well, minus some of the toys…. plastic wrap=fun
hot. I did a similar show at the chamber a few times.well, minus some of the toys…. plastic wrap=fun
Re: Doh!
Can you give me some links, please? I mean, to forums where tacit hangs out?
[Unless he’s majorly creeped out by the idea that I like him and want to get to know him better and so I just read everything he writes in public. I should hope that he’s not creeped out, though; because that’s kind of the idea of writing and being public about who you are. So that people could get to know you without you having to spend time on them. Well, OK, that’s one of the ideas… :-)]
Re: Doh!
The places where you can usually find me include the OK Cupid forums, the MacFixIt forums, and of course here. 🙂
It’s not that simple. You, for example: remember that argument you had with dancingguy about compliments? You explained to him yourself, very convincingly, how if someone gives you a compliment about your body, you’ll just lose interest. You won’t run screaming; you’ll lose interest. You understand that not everyone who does this has to be an asshole; you understand that there is a chance that such a guy might, for example, be actually very familiar with the subject of objectification and all, only that he strongly disagrees with you, and he tries to reclaim the idea of admiring someone’s beauty without implied disrespect. But it doesn’t matter — because you and him are never going to have that conversation, and you’re never going to find out who he is and why he believes what he believes — because you’re going to filter him out and talk to someone else instead. And you would be right to do so, too — because life is short and we use our time to talk to people we like — and so, inevitably, some people will simply not get a second chance.
And that’s exactly what other people do to us. They filter us out based on little information; therefore, communication in an early stage is much more problematic. You just can’t afford to send wrong signals. You’re probably thinking now “But how can I send wrong signals if I’m being brutally honest?!” but this is exactly the catch: you can. It took me long time to understand this — I’m also brutally honest by nature. What is important is not what you say or do, but how the other person interpretes what you say or do. You can mean one thing, but they’ll hear something totally different. And then they’ll filter you out — not by who you are, but by who you are not.
And the areas in which such communication problems are especially prone to arise are: violation of accepted social norms; and/or: complex issues. Important, personal topics are often complex — in the sense they take long time to explain right, and if you don’t have that time, then you’ll explain them wrong, and the person will have a wrong picture of you. So, yes — the best thing to do is to “pussyfoot” around these topics, until you trust that the person likes you enough to agree to refrain from judgement until you are both sure that he understood you correctly. And this is not likely to happen in the beginning of a relationship.
If by this point you stopped seeing how this relates to discussing intimate things on the Internet, I can explain 🙂
Re: Doh!
Tacit is all over the internet, on OKC, on Myspace, on a few LJ groups, and a bunch of Yahoo groups, on literotica, his own half-dozen websites. I don’t have the specific urls to all the specific threads he’s ever commented on (and many of them were email groups, so there wouldn’t be a url to that thread anyway), but if it has to do with polyamory, bdsm, computers, transhumanism, and probably a few things I don’t know about, you’ll most likely find him there. He has posted about some of the groups and forums he’s on in the past, as they sometimes provide fodder for this LJ.
I am OK with the idea of other people filtering me out, even if I might be interested in them. It doesn’t hurt my feelings to have someone not be interested in me, no matter what the reason. If they are going to dismiss me because he misinterpreted me, then he doesn’t get me and we’ll probably have communication issues in our relationship, should we ever start one.
The people I prefer to get involved with are people who get me, brutal honesty and all. There is nothing wrong with people not being interested in me. It doesn’t hurt my feelings to have people think I’m ugly or bitchy or rude or any other subjective criteria. Therefore it’s not a problem being this open and discussing intimate things on the internet, because I don’t mind people not being interested in me – even when I’m interested in them. If they’re not, they’re not, and that’s that.
Frankly, I can afford to send wrong signals, because I’m not afraid of being alone and I’m more interested in quality than quanity.
I don’t tend to get involved with people I just met and who are more likely to misinterpret what I’m saying. I prefer to get involved with people who have been friends, or at least part of my social circle, for a while. Every time I do rush things like that, it blows up pretty spectacularly. If they are a friend first, they’re more likely to have better tools for not misinterpreting me. If they’re part of my social circle, they’ll have more opportunity to learn that their original idea of me was a misconception as our social activities bring us into regular contact with each other.
So, for me, it still is that simple.
Congratulations to both of you with the results of your elections! (Well, OK, except for that California thing…)
On the point: you know what? I think you’re right.
Well, OK, I don’t 100% agree with that whole “If I’m trying to communicate and I’m being misunderstood then it’s either their problem or just wasn’t meant to be, but it’s definitely not my problem” thing, but I like your approach much more than the “If a cool and smart person does not like me then either I’m stupid and not likeable or my communication skills suck” approach, which more or less describes my take on it…
An important thing I understood from this conversation is that this is what was in the back of my head the entire time; also, my fear of misunderstandings is way too big. This deal that sometimes two nice people don’t understand each other, and the misunderstadning is never resolved — it’s part of life. I really have to take it easier…
Re: Doh!
Thanks! 🙂
t’s about potential friends. People whom I like and respect, but who still don’t know me very well. People with whom I only hope to develop something, and I’m really afraid to screw it up. Then, communication is the key; but if I try to communicate while ignoring the accepted social norms of behavior, I will probably be misunderstood.
Hmm. That’s an interesting point, though one I seem to approach from the opposite end.
I am very selective about my friends. I want and value only friends who are freethinking, and openminded, who do not accept social norms simply because they are social norms, who understand non-traditional sex and relationships, that sort of thing.
By being open about my own non-traditional sexual and relationship life, I find that I tend to attract people with those qualities to me. The folks who see me, or read the things I write, and respond to those things, tend to be the folks who have the qualities I want and value in a friend. The more likely a person is to misunderstand or to be put off by these things, the less likely that person is to have these qualities.
Openness acts as its own filter; it’s a mechanism for quickly finding those people who are most likely to be the kins of friends I want to have. I doubt, for example, that there are very many sexually repressive Evangelicals reading my blog, and that suits me fine.
But let’s flip that on its head and look at the other side. Say you constrain your interaction with the world at large to what you believe the social norms o be, and let’s say that other people also do the same thing. How will you recognize the folks that share your values and proclivities? They’re busy conforming to their perceptions of social norms, too, right? If neither you nor your kinky neighbor ever works up the nerve to mention that you’re kinky, how will you recognize one another?
How, for that matter, if everyone’s hiding those things that they believe might violate perceived social norms, can you really even tell what the social norms ARE? If you have a group of 100 people, and 50 of them are kinky, but nobody talks about it and nobody even knows about it because all 50 of them are interacting with everyone else only according to the most conservatives of social norms, then how are those fifty people going to find each other, and what does the “social norm” even mean? In that thought experiment, half of the people are behaving in a way that doesn’t express the reality of who they are; if they became more open, doesn’t that mean that the “social norm” would change, by definition? Is it actually a social norm if it doesn’t even reflect the values of a majority of the people to begin with?
One of the things that I’ve learned by being as open as I am is that kinky people are everywhere, Poly kinky BDSMers are, I think, far, far more common than everyone believes; it’s just that you can’t recognize a lot of ’em ’cause they’re too busy trying not to be open. 🙂
Just a minor note:
I don’t actually think “well, that’s their problem” or “it just wasn’t meant to be”. First of all, communication takes two people, so it’s not just “their problem”, it’s just that I don’t make a big deal about it when things are early on, such as strangers or *potential* partners. If something is really important to me that I try to get a concept across, I will actually try a few times before I give up. I’m just saying that someone not liking me doesn’t matter that much to me in the grand scheme of things.
If the relationship has already progressed to where they mean something to me, we’ve already gotten past most of the major hurdles like my brutal honesty or what I write on the internet, and they’re not likely to just pick up and run over a misunderstanding without trying to talk to me about it first, where I’ll have the opportunity to clarify.
I also don’t believe in any “meant to be”. So that helps a great deal with not being hurt when someone doesn’t like me. I’m not saying it never hurts to be rejected, but it’s not the end of the world. It’s not even a lost day crying.
I do try hard to make people understand me, I will attempt to say things a couple of different ways when I’m trying to get a concept across. Take this conversation, for instance. But I also know, as you just pointed out, that sometimes people just don’t get each other, and that’s OK. There are 6 billion people on this planet. I don’t have time for everyone, they don’t have time for me. So someone rejecting me out of hand because they don’t like something I said on the internet is simply one less person to take up my time only for me to learn that we’re not compatible later on.
The sooner I find out we’re not compatible, the better off I am, because that leaves me more time for those who *are* compatible with me, including the loved ones already in my life.
But basically, I think you’re getting much closer to understand where I, at least, am coming from, and I think to where is coming from, although I don’t like to speak for him, as our views are not 100% exactly the same.
As usual, you’ve stated what I was trying to say in a much more understandable manner.
The main point I was trying to get across was Openness acts as its own filter; it’s a mechanism for quickly finding those people who are most likely to be the kins of friends I want to have. This is why it doesn’t bother me to have people not like me based on what I say online. If they’re bothered by my aggressive honesty, or by my kinkiness or polyness or my tomboyishness, or whatever, then they’re not likely to want to be my friend, and they’re not likely to be the kind of friend I want to have. So this weeds them out before I’ve had a chance to become so heavily invested in them that it actually does hurt when they leave.
Your other point is exactly why I believe all “alternative-lifestyle” people who can afford to be out, should be out. If no one is open about who they are, how will we ever find each other? And if no one knows that they’re not the only one, how can we expect our society to change in the direction of being more accepting towards us?
Oh, no, now you didn’t understand me. I’m very far from thinking that we should always conform to the perceived social norms. I certainly don’t do it myself. I’m very open about being poly, for example; and I 100% agree with all your points about the values of openness, particularly for non-traditional cultures. Poly, actually, makes a pretty bad example for what I had in mind, because it can be explained pretty easily — compared to some other things. You just say you’re polyamorous, and if they want to know what it means, you tell. It’s not a cause of misunderstandings — not in the way I mean.
The main thing is this: it’s not that I’m bothered that certain people will learn certain things about me — on the contrary, I want to make it as easy as possible for all people to learn things about me (for all the important reasons you said). But, paradoxically, the way to make it happen is to delay openness on certain issues until the relationship develops sufficiently. Notice I said “delay”, not “forego”! If you are being open from the start, people might “learn” things that are not actually true. I’ll have to show it on some real examples:
Consider a hypothetical guy, Pete who saw joreth’s profile on okcupid, read her journal and decided that she is really, really cool. And smart. And interesting. And really sexy, too. He loves her photos — he thinks her face and body are absolutely gorgeous. Imagine now that our Pete meets joreth for the first time at a con… he sees her in her Leila and has to swallow. All he can think is: “WOW”. But he’s a smart guy. And so he knows when not to be open — about certain things. He knows that the last thing he should do right now is to say exactly how he feels. So he’ll compliment her costume and begin a conversation about her latest journal post. Eventually, if all goes well, he will let her know everything. But not until he’ll be reasonably sure that she will understand his feelings for what they really are. If he says it right now, he is going to be misunderstood; and joreth is important enough for him to really, really not want to screw it up.
A different example, about kink: imagine a gay guy, Jim, who falls in love with Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. In addition to being fascinated with this beautiful, complex art, he also finds it really hot. For him, the battle for dominance of each other’s body can be an intense erotic experience. OK… but should he detail in his public journal his sexual fantasies about Royce Gracie putting him in a rear naked choke? A resounding, NO! Because if his instructor and training partners learn about this… shit will hit the fan. They will totally misunderstand it. Most of them will be appalled by the perceived disrespect for the sport (or for Royce) — and they will be totally wrong, because Jim has tons of respect. Many of them will be afraid that he will harass them, or see his kink as an invitation to harass him. The funny thing: Jim believes that if only they all knew exactly what is going on in his head, most of them would have no problem at all with it. The problem is that the whole issue is complex and subtle, and people just really tend to misunderstand it. So, Jim will come out — to his close friends — but all the rest will have to wait.
[continued]
A last example: imagine a guy, John, who is pathetically in love with a woman he’s never seen or spoken with in real life. He read her books; and was blown away by her wisdom and character. Since then, he listened to every interview she gave and recorded every show she appeared on. He dreams about her, and has a collection of her photos. He sounds typical, right? A pathetic loser, in love with a celebrity. Immature, has no life, doesn’t understand what real intimacy is, unable to distinguish real life and fantasy… you could go on. But it would all be wrong. All these things would be correct for 99.9% of such cases – but Johnny is an exception to the rule. And in order to understand that he is not, in fact, all of the above, you would have to know him very well. There are just no shortcuts in this case. You would have to be his close friend in order to know that he actually has a life – and he’s smart and happy and confident and has wonderful relationships. You would then have to read all these books that meant so much to him, and listen to him explaining his feelings. You’d have to see for yourself that, as incredible as it sounds, John actually loves a real person, and not a fantasy. And only then you’d say: “You know what, man? You’re right. She’s just chock-full of awesome. And you have my sympathy… although I’m also happy for you.”
And that’s why only John’s close friends know about his crush. He’s extremely careful when he discusses the ideas from her books in his online journal. He knows that if he’s not careful, all people — including HER, if she ever visits his site — would think he is a pathetic loser. And he doesn’t want that.
Sorry for the long post, I just wanted to show what I meant – how honesty and openness about intimate and complex things, expressed prematurely, can sometimes block paths to intimacy instead of opening them.
The problem with the “social equilibrium” method is that, as long as *everyone* is hiding, there will never come a day when mainstream society *won’t* ” look with contempt at these who are open about such things” because everyone is hiding.
This doesn’t mean that I (or) think that everyone should be out to the same degree that we are at this time. There are, after all, very real repurcussions for being out.
What this means is that I think everyone who can be this out, should be, for the sake of eliminating the fear and discrimination.
There is also a difference between being “out” and which details are shared and which are omitted. The subject of being out is a slightly different topic than what we’ve been discussing below, with regards to intimate details and public sharing.
Re: Doh!
Something else that I completely neglected to touch upon while this thread was still going is the concept of other people’s privacy.
The primary reason for omitting details of “personal” topics, for me (and a lot of the time for) is not because a topic is too personal or too private or too intimate for me, but because it includes details about other people, and I respect other people’s right to choose privacy.
For example, I might omit details or neglect to talk about my most recent breakup on my LJ, not because it’s too personal for me, but because my ex may not want me to comment on it in a public venue. Although I do my best to try and be objective when relating a story, chances are, if I felt wronged in any particular way, my version of the story is going to reflect that.
I tend to get along well with my exes, so I see no need, nor justification, for publicly declaring why I think my hypothetical ex was an idiot or an asshole in that situation, even if I think I also contributed to the situation. Even if I’m not on such friendly terms, there’s probably a pretty good chance we might still have overlapping social circles, and I am adamantly opposed to dragging friends into a he-said-she-said-take-sides battle. So the less said publicly, in this regard, the better for social peace. Now, I might talk to individual friends (mutual or not) in a one-on-one setting, because that’s partially what friends are for, but if I think or know that someone might get hurt or offended that I spoke of them on the internet in an identifiable way, I try to avoid it for their sake – not mine.
I have made the occasional exception when I thought the lesson I learned was important enough to share, and I do take care to change names and otherwise protect their identity if possible.
But, I’ve been thinking of this topic, both during our dialog and since, and I honestly cannot come up with any topic that I’m not willing to discuss unless I feel some need for discretion out of respect for someone else’s privacy. When talking to about this thread, pretty much any situation he admitted to not discussing publicly had similar reasoning for why he did not discuss it publicly.
I beg to differ about your example concerning me.
First of all, I automatically assume that anyone who is interested in me romantically will find me attractive, so him “delaying” telling me that he finds me attractive doesn’t do anything, since I’ve already assumed he does.
What I object to is people finding me nothing *but* attractive. And anyone who cannot think of anything to say to me except “ur hot” is a reasonable indication that he holds physical attractiveness higher in value than I do.
What I also object to is anyone who tells me “ur hot” when I explicitly request not to. I never hold anyone permanently responsible for doing or saying something that I have never explicitly said not to do. That would be unreasonable. I can’t expect anyone to read my mind, so if I haven’t said so yet, you get a free pass this time.
So when I get so upset at people emailing me with “ur hot”, it’s only partially because of my attitude about physical appearance. Mostly, it’s because this person has just indicated to me that he does not listen to what I say and does not care for my feelings. And what *doesn’t* make it into the public journals are all the emails I get where someone did *not* piss me off, many of which do compliment me on my physical appearance.
So, in your example, Pete not telling me that he is attracted to me only results in me not knowing that he is considering me as a potential partner – which will most likely result in me writing him off because I’m not getting any indication that he’s interested.
If he had told me at the time, I could respond appropriately. The biggest way to screw something up with me is to not tell me something – that’s a far less forgivable offense than simply complimenting me.
John does not love a real person. He can’t. He doesn’t know her. He “loves” a character in his head that he has created based on her books. His character might be remarkably similar to the real person, but he does not, in fact, know her.
Given the right circumstances, it might grow into a real love. But without having spoken to her even once, he does not *know* her, even as much as anyone can “know” anyone else.
You’re right. When I wrote about Pete meeting you for the first time, I implicitly assumed that this meeting was, in fact, the first interaction he had with you (that until this meeting he only read you, without trying to contact in any way). But now when I think about it — why would that be the case? If he liked you so much based on your journal, he should have written an email first, or commented on your journal, or something. That way, he wouldn’t create a situation in which potential misunderstandings could occur.
So, yes, when I look at the example from this point of view, it actually demonstrates how being open as early as possible helps avoid misunderstandings. You’re right – my bad 🙂
Yes, you’re right — I wasn’t clear enough about that. Really knowing a person takes years of *good* communication. All this long process of “getting to know someone” is, in fact, creating a character in our head, based on all the information we are given. As time passes and we have more and more information, we update this “model” or “character” based on new evidence, and it gets closer and closer to reality (although, as Franklin wrote somewhere, even after many years we still can have a remarkably wrong model).
What I meant is that John’s crush is just as valid as any other crush — of course the information he has is extremely limited, but so it usually is when one only falls in love! He himself understands that there are many ways in which he could be wrong about her; problem is, he doesn’t have access to information that might change his current evaluation. He can’t get to know her. And what he knows so far blew him away.
My point was that it takes a lot of information to understand that his particular crush is not a sign of immaturity, or other psychological problems that come to mind when one first hears about it. That’s why he’s so shy about it — he doesn’t want to create a false impression.
A better understanding of himself and what a “crush” is and is not would be much more beneficial to avoiding creating a false impression than simply not talking about it at all.
Fans often admit their crushes or admiration of celebrities and it’s not considered creepy. As long as John understands that what he feels is an admiration for a person that he *does not know and might not turn out to be who he expects*, his admission of his crush might even *prompt* a meeting which could turn into the realization of his limerance.
So, once again, communication and honesty (including and especially with oneself) is still the better option, particularly with paired with an education and understanding of the human condition.
From what I heard, it usually is. Considered, I mean. Admiration — no, but a crush — yes. Either creepy, or immature/silly, or both. But you’re right nevertheless… I just understood something: the habit of being brutally open about intimate things pushes you to be who you want to be. Because if you have that habit, and then you feel ashamed about sharing something — you start digging into the sources of that shame, and either find a legitimate cause, a problem that you should deal with, or an irrational fear that you drag out to the light and fight head on. Either way, you have no choice but to eventually become confident and at peace with yourself — and then to work in order to keep that peace.
You know what I really like about you, Shara? You just don’t let go 🙂 If you disagree with something, you just hammer on it until understanding is reached. I think that it is totally awesome!
I can’t remember when was the last conversation that changed my mind about something important. This one has. Moreover, unlike some other times, I think that my actual behavior is going to change as a result 🙂 (although that will require some willpower and courage on my part… and I’m also sure I’ll be hurt quite a few times). But it’s worth it. You’re right. It’s all worth it.
Thank you,
Ola
P.S. I agree 100% about the need to protect other people’s privacy, of course…
I’m so glad you’re appreciative – it occurred to me a couple of posts ago that my constant responses could be viewed as badgering you, and I meant to say something about it, but I forgot. It’s just that this is a complex concept and not easy to get across in a few journal posts. It’s much easier in a verbal dialog when you can add vocal inflection and body language, and also to respond immediately.
Yes, I think you’ve found one of the main reasons why brutal honesty is so important – it’s not just honesty with others, but honesty with oneself. It’s very easy to lie to oneself when you’re already in the habit of lying or hiding to others. When you make yourself be honest to others, you can’t hide from yourself. Either you will see yourself, or someone else will and point it out to you.
That’s also one of the benefits to polyamory (or a good, trustworthy, honest social circle) – it’s harder to hide from additional pairs of eyes.
As has said before, being a secure person takes practice, just as being insecure takes practice – we just don’t always realize that we’re “practicing” our insecurities. So yes, it will be difficult at first, and you will get hurt. But I’ve found that we get hurt anyway. The hurt is merely what happens in between the good stuff 🙂