The Internets are working at the new apartment! Yay!

This is one of a very, very few friends-only posts I’ve made…in fact, I think it’s the second.

So Thursday I did an interview with a writer for WebMD about polyamory. The article, which to my knowledge isn’t finished yet, will supposedly be on the front page of the Web site when it’s done.

I discovered that I’ve done these interviews often enough now that I can pretty much predict how they’ll go. Initially, the writer said it’d take 15-20 minutes, which I knew was a bit ambitious; it ended up taking nearly an hour.

There’s a sort of standard flow to an interview about polyamory given by a person who’s not at all familiar with it. Usually, they start out using terms like “polyamory,” “open marriage,” “open relationship, and sometimes “swinging” interchangeably, which prompts a brief segue down the road of “polyamory can be seen as one type of open relationship, sort of, but not all poly relationships are open and not all open relationships are polyamorous.”

From that point comes a list of questions about the interviewee:

“How long have you been polyamorous?”
“How many partners do you have?”
“Do your partners know about each other?”
“Have your partners met each other?”
“What do you mean, they like each other?”
“You and your partners hang out with each other and do things together???!!
“Your partners have OTHER BOYFRIENDS?
“And you like them???!!!!11!!11!”
“Don’t you get jealous?”

From there, things generally move into Phase II of the interview:

“Do you think everyone should be polyamorous?”
“What makes you want more than one girlfriend?”
“Why isn’t one person enough?”
“Of your girlfriends, which one is your main girlfriend?”
“I’ve heard polyamorous people have ‘primary’ and ‘secondary’ partners. Which one is your primary?”
“Which one do you want to live with?”
“Do you have group sex?”
“Do you ever think you’ll settle down?”

That generally brings us into Phase III, which is:

“What about children? Isn’t it confusing for children?”
“I talked to someone who said he broke up with a polyamorous partner. Doesn’t that mean polyamory doesn’t work?”
“What do you get out of being polyamorous?”

I’ve made this post friends-only because it often happens that people who ask me for interviews have read my journal first. Im not trying to ridicule the questions that I’m usually asked; that’s not actually the point here at all.

Instead, I think these questions serve to illuminate just how deeply ingrained cultural ideas about sex and relationship are. These interviews inevitably take more than 15-20 minutes because in many cases it takes longer than that just to deconstruct the assumptions behind the questions to the point where the answer is intelligible. I also think it’s interesting that cultural ideas about sex and relationship are so much a part of a person’s background understanding of the world that even completely different people, having no contact at all with one another, giving interviews in different formats at different times for different types of publications, will ask more or less the same pattern of questions in more or less the same order.

When interviews about polyamory appear on the Web, one can expect the same pattern of comments and responses, too.

One of the things that consistently strikes me when I view reader response to a Web article about polyamory is how much the responses say, not about polyamory, but about the person making them. We all tend to re-create the world in our own image; “I think this is wrong because it is inevitable that someone will get jealous” translates, for example, to “I personally would be jealous, and can not conceive that another person might not be.”

108 thoughts on “The Internets are working at the new apartment! Yay!

  1. I’ve often noted that jealousy is viewed by the general population as an inevitable/natural/desirable factor in relationships. Viewing jealousy simplistically and favourably seems to me to be one of the largest barriers, after moral beliefs, to poly-mono understanding.

    Good post; I’ll keep this in mind if I’m ever interviewed.

    • The inevitability of jealousy is rooted, I think, in the idea that the trigger of jealousy is the cause of the jealousy. People will believe, for example, “Jealousy is caused by my lover kissing another person,” without the introspection to see that, actually, jealousy is caused by the other feelings that arise in me (be they insecurity or fear of loss or feelings that someone else is taking what’s mine or whatever) that are aroused by the kissing of the other person.

      It’s an important distinction, I think, because a person who thinks that jealousy is “caused by” one’s partner kissing someone else will not see that a different emotional reaction is possible, nor be able to see how to begin to resolve the jealousy.

      One of the more frustrating things I encounter is people who say “I am just a jealous-type person,” as if it’s a question of genetics, as inevitable as hair color. No, scratch that, people are more willing to do things to chane their hair color than they are willing to examine their own emotional responses to the world.

      • jealous-type-person

        I think of being a “jealous-type person” as having a limiting handicap. It does make things others take for granted more difficult, but doesn’t make them impossible. The ability to overcome the handicap depends on first recognizing the differences between cultural assumptions about what people like oneself can/should do, and what one is actually capable of and willing for.

        Probably most “jealous-type people” are excusing their neglect of personal responsibility by saying it’s out of their control. Some, though, may be saying they need more assistance or rehabilitation than they can do themselves, to get independent of the limitations of their condition… but much of what’s put forth as “assistance” for overcoming mental/emotional or physical limitations, is quackery. Just use this special pill/ meditation/ surgery/ diet/ communication strategy/ hot bi babe…
        Even very well-educated people have difficulty separating a useful technique from a scam, in medicine or psychology.

        I think it’s very interesting that Tacit gets interviewed by WebMD. They’re generally a fairly reliable source for medical issues; it would be interesting to see psych issues get similar broadly public sensible treatment.

  2. I’ve often noted that jealousy is viewed by the general population as an inevitable/natural/desirable factor in relationships. Viewing jealousy simplistically and favourably seems to me to be one of the largest barriers, after moral beliefs, to poly-mono understanding.

    Good post; I’ll keep this in mind if I’m ever interviewed.

  3. Hey there. I haven’t chatted with you in a while, and just wanted to say “hi!”

    Hope all is well, and we’ll have to catch up sometime. My AIM name has changed to sxyvixen6407 from HangingTheStars.

  4. Hey there. I haven’t chatted with you in a while, and just wanted to say “hi!”

    Hope all is well, and we’ll have to catch up sometime. My AIM name has changed to sxyvixen6407 from HangingTheStars.

  5. “Do your partners know about each other?”
    “Have your partners met each other?”
    “What do you mean, they like each other?”
    “You and your partners hang out with each other and do things together???!!”
    “Your partners have OTHER BOYFRIENDS?”
    “And you like them???!!!!11!!11!”

    That’s exactly what happened when I came out at work the other day. They got the sleeping-with-several-people thing. They were comPLETEly confused about the everyone’s-cool-with-that-no-really thing.

    • The sleeping-with-several people thing is something that people can grasp–even when they’re nominally monogamous.

      Odds are pretty good that a person who claims to be monogamous has engaged in cheating. A monogamous person can believe that cheating is morally wrong or whatever, while still believing that the unique, special circumstances surrounding his own cheating justified it made it OK–people are skilled at rationalization.

      So people have a context for understanding “I’m sleeping with other people but they don’t know.” The paradigm-busting part, the part that people don’t have a context for, is “I have two lovers and they both like each other.”

  6. “Do your partners know about each other?”
    “Have your partners met each other?”
    “What do you mean, they like each other?”
    “You and your partners hang out with each other and do things together???!!”
    “Your partners have OTHER BOYFRIENDS?”
    “And you like them???!!!!11!!11!”

    That’s exactly what happened when I came out at work the other day. They got the sleeping-with-several-people thing. They were comPLETEly confused about the everyone’s-cool-with-that-no-really thing.

  7. Friends only

    “I’ve made this post friends-only because it often happens that people who ask me for interviews have read my journal first. Im not trying to ridicule the questions that I’m usually asked; that’s not actually the point here at all.”

    I think that’s exactly why you should unlock this post. And change the subject heading to “Polyamory Interviews”. So people who are preparing to interview you can be properly prepared.

    • Re: Friends only

      I’m glad that someone else thought the same way that I do.

      Tacit, please get out this message: that you, your girlfriends, and their boyfriends, all know about each other and that you’re all comfortable with this arrangement.

      Most Americans have little experience with people who don’t share almost all of their assumptions. Some Americans won’t even spend time with others that they know is of the other political party.

    • Re: Friends only

      Or maybe, instead of opening up this post, it would be a good idea to write up a post with answers to some of those common questions, so that interviewers who look before the interview will already have some basic understanding of the common misconceptions.

      • Re: Friends only

        oh like this?
        http://www.xeromag.com/fvpoly.html

        I think he made his choice for his own reasons. I agree that the media does the same “OMG it’s wrong, OH the jealousy, What about the children” dance every time the subject comes up.

        until someone says
        “look I could spend an hour of your time trying to explain a lifestyle choice to you or you can just accept that it is MY choice and it works for ME just like monogamy works for you. OR we can end this right now before you tell the world what spiteful, arrogant sinners we are despite all of the valid arguments that have been presented by hundreds of people against that “fact”.
        We are always going to have to explain to others what comes naturally to many of us (poly people).

    • Re: Friends only

      I went back and forth about making it public or friends-only.

      In the end, I opted to keep it friends-only for two reasons: I don’t want to give anyone the false impression that I’m being snarky about the questions I’m asked, and I don’t want to discourage people from asking these questions. They’re predictable questions, but even though they’re sometimes so far off base they can feel annoying (“Will you ever settle down?” and “Why isn’t one person enough?” are the ones that tend to get me), they’re still important. I don’t want to give an interviewer the impression that these questions shouldn’t be asked, or that I’m tired of answering them, or that this ground has been covered already. It HAS been covered already, but its’s still the ground that most people want to know about.

  8. Friends only

    “I’ve made this post friends-only because it often happens that people who ask me for interviews have read my journal first. Im not trying to ridicule the questions that I’m usually asked; that’s not actually the point here at all.”

    I think that’s exactly why you should unlock this post. And change the subject heading to “Polyamory Interviews”. So people who are preparing to interview you can be properly prepared.

  9. We all tend to re-create the world in our own image; “I think this is wrong because it is inevitable that someone will get jealous” translates, for example, to “I personally would be jealous, and can not conceive that another person might not be.”

    It might have some to do with how small children are trained to be sensitive to others’ feelings.

    “Now, Johnny, don’t hit your little sister on the head with a hammer. How do you like it when someone hits you on the head gives you a skull fracture? Hurts, doesn’t it?”

    • Re: Friends only

      yeah, they only develop what social scientists call “theory of mind” around age 2-3

      before that, a baby treats its mother the same whether she has her eyes closed or not. after that, the baby realizes that when he closes his eyes, he can’t see, so neither can she.

      It’s a whole nother step in development when you realize that the differences in people give them another, *perfectly valid* viewpoint.

      that was a fun class, the one when we read those studies. Trying to imagine how toddlers think leads to pretty interesting stuff.

    • I should try an experiment on someone’s toddlers, and ask them in that same tone of voice about something good that they did. “Now Johnny, I see that you helped your baby sister get a toy. How do you think that makes her feel?” and see if he answers “sorry”. This question seems to be asked only when Johnny does something bad, eh? ^__^

      • following the digression

        some folks use it both ways. I’ve seen the good variety, like “why, little Johnny, I see you gave your little sister half your cookie. Do you think she liked that? Look at her smiling. Janie, did you like the cookie? We say ‘thank you’ when someone does something nice for us. Say thank-you to Johnny.” &etc.

        Good or bad, it’s most useful when the adult models not only recognizing others’ POVs, but how to use that awareness in a healthy way.

        I’ve also seen kids who’ve clearly had “how do you think that makes him feel” used incorrectly & without modeling healthy relating skills so they know what to do instead of whapping the other kid in the head with the toy… so when one asks “Little Janie, how do you think it makes Johnny feel to be whapped on the head?” she comes back with “he likes it!” presumably because either a) she likes it so he must too–erroneous over-identification or b)he keeps ‘asking for it’ or c)it’s the only thing she knows to do & so must justify it.

        • Re: following the digression

          so when one asks “Little Janie, how do you think it makes Johnny feel to be whapped on the head?” she comes back with “he likes it!”

          Just the thing for the budding sociopath in the family. 🙂

    • It might have some to do with how small children are trained to be sensitive to others’ feelings.

      Hmm.

      I can see where empathy and projection might be closely related, but I don’t think they’re actually the same thing.

      Empathy is the ability to understand a person’s current emotional state based on our own experiences: “Jane’s parents just died; Jane is crying; I would be unhappy if my parents just died; therefore, I can understand Jane’s emotion.” But projection is slightly different: “If my partner had another lover, I would be wildly jealous; therefore, all other people in all circumstances whose partners have other lovers will feel jealous as well.”

      In a way, it’s a difference between a descriptive approach to empathy (I see another person feeling some way; I can put myself in that person’s shoes; when i do that, it allows me to understand those feelings”) and a prescriptive approach to empathy (“I feel thus-and-such in this situation; therefore, everyone in this situation feels thus-and-such”). I don’t think being taught to empathize with another person’s feelings, or even to try to predict what another person might feel if we hit them over the head with a hammer, necessarily leads to projecting one’s feelings onto other people.

      • Of course they’re not the same thing! But I think that when we rear children, we tend to fail to take it to the next step. What I described is appropriate to a very small child. I don’t often see it taken further.

        Don’t you see children treated negatively every day for having just tastes that are different from their parents?

        • I don’t see children every day in general; I don’t have any children, and I’m only very rarely in environments where there are children around. 🙂 It’s not hard for me to believe, people being what they are, that parents will punish children for adopting different ideas or even different tastes, though.

          …does that make me cynical?

  10. We all tend to re-create the world in our own image; “I think this is wrong because it is inevitable that someone will get jealous” translates, for example, to “I personally would be jealous, and can not conceive that another person might not be.”

    It might have some to do with how small children are trained to be sensitive to others’ feelings.

    “Now, Johnny, don’t hit your little sister on the head with a hammer. How do you like it when someone hits you on the head gives you a skull fracture? Hurts, doesn’t it?”

  11. Amazing how scared some people are of jealousy. Like it is the ultimate deal breaker of all deal breakers and not just another feeling to be processed like anger or sadness.

    I can’t wait to see the article, please make sure you mention it here so I remember to look for it again. I only have the same worry I do every time someone says they did an interview about poly. How much is the author going to trash the subject and how much innuendo are they going to use?

    • People are scared of any unpleasant emotion, including fear. “I could never do that, it’s too scary” is distressingly common a response to many, many things, I think.

      • Yes they do. It is interesting that they assume that fear is a normal part of marriage, such as “cold feet”, but they just handle it, but jealousy is the deal breaker.

        “I’m jealous of something they are doing, that means it is wrong and the relationship is broken”

        Instead of saying

        “Oh its just relationship jealousy, they will get over it”.

        I know that a lot of the reason the last few months of my marriage was so horrible was because of jealousy. I was jealous of the new woman and she was jealous of what I already had. She lied and cheated to get what she wanted and she got it. I ran away and hid. fortunately I ended up in a better place because of that loss, but it took awhile to realize that.

        Since then I have learned not only that being jealous is ok, but that it’s a symptom not the problem and I am also learning how I personally should deal with it.

        as for things being too scary… I usually tell people, “I went through hell in the last two years, THAT was scary and I never thought I would survive it, after that NOTHING is too scary.”

  12. Amazing how scared some people are of jealousy. Like it is the ultimate deal breaker of all deal breakers and not just another feeling to be processed like anger or sadness.

    I can’t wait to see the article, please make sure you mention it here so I remember to look for it again. I only have the same worry I do every time someone says they did an interview about poly. How much is the author going to trash the subject and how much innuendo are they going to use?

  13. One of the things that consistently strikes me when I view reader response to a Web article about polyamory is how much the responses say, not about polyamory, but about the person making them. We all tend to re-create the world in our own image; “I think this is wrong because it is inevitable that someone will get jealous” translates, for example, to “I personally would be jealous, and can not conceive that another person might not be.”

    I agree that we create our own images, but a significant number of poly relationships that I’ve observed are subject to the whims of jealousy. The number of poly relationships (that I know about) that are generally successful are a small fraction of the number of poly relationships (that I know about) that are generally NOT successful. Maybe that’s just a factor of the people I know, but it certainly seems to be a theme. Poly relationships seem to be harder to handle, to me, because instead of two egos that need to be in harmony, you’ve got three, or four, or five or more. Someone always seems to end up being on the outside, looking in.

    Just an observation.

    • The number of poly relationships (that I know about) that are generally successful are a small fraction of the number of poly relationships (that I know about) that are generally NOT successful.

      I could just as easily substitute the word “poly” for the word “monogamous” in that statement. When looking at just numbers, monogamous people are just as prone to breakups as poly people are. It’s not a relationship-structure thing, it’s an incompatible-partner thing. With the divorce rate over 50% and the rate of successive marriages rising, if we were to look at how many relationships are not “successful” (and that requires a definition too), I would have to say monogamy doesn’t hold any corner on the market either. But for some people, it seems to work.

      Polyamory is most definately not for the faint of heart. It *is* more difficult. But, my experience has shown me that when a poly relationship breaks up, it’s not because it was poly, it’s because the people who broke up were not compatible at that point in time.

      At a local poly retreat, has been building a trebuchet every year. It’s not really justifiable as poly, it’s just fun. Last year, however, we did come up with a poly metaphor for the trebuchet. Here’s what we discovered:

      Relationships are like this trebuchet. When the trebuchet is in its static state (monogamy), you can have flaws in the foundation. If the flaws are small enough, the trebuchet can continue happily being a trebuchet indefinately. But when the trebuchet becomes dynamic and in motion (adding another person), any flaws in the foundation are immediately amplified, which can cause anything from unsuccessful firings to a complete and total blow-up of the machine.

      So yes, a poly relationship can be “harder” to handle in that you need a certain set of relationship skills to keep it from blowing up. But these same skills are applicable in monogamous relationships (IMO, just as important). It’s just that mongamous people can ignore the flaws for longer and polyamory won’t allow us to live happily in ignorance.

      • I, however, have discovered that monogamy is “harder” for me because it requires a lot more work. Polyamory is just so intuitively natural to me that trying to be monogamous is infinately more difficult, to the point of impossible for me. It’s much easier for me to be open and trusting of my partners, to be able to share with them my joy of another person, than to bottle up who I am and what I feel out of fear of their own insecurities. It’s much easier for me to confront my own fears and to help my partners work on theirs, than to ignore them and hope they go away.

        No, for me, monogamy is WAY more difficult.

        • What do you define as “successful”?

          That’s the problem I have with this particular statement. It always befuddles me that if my wife had died after 5 years of marriage, no one would call the marriage a failure, but the fact that we chose to divorce, instead, makes it a “failed marriage.” And no, we did not have “til death” in our vows.

          Same for relationships. I had a wonderful poly family for 5 years with great growth, struggle, joys, and love shared. Now we’ve gone our separate ways. Does it hurt? Yes, but not because it failed. Change hurts. Growth hurts. That’s life.

          • Re: What do you define as “successful”?

            that’s always an issue, which is why I specifically mention it 🙂 I don’t consider a relationship ending necessarily to be a “failure”. The reason *why* it ended might contribute to it being a “failure”. It all depends upon the goals the individuals set up for the relationship. In many monogamous default relationships, the “goal” is “til death do we part”, which is why an ending is seen as a “failure”. Not only is that an unrealistic goal (although a happy accident when it occurs and those involved are happy, not stuck with each other til death), I believe it is an unhealthy goal as well. It also misses an entire spectrum of “sucess” or feelings of happiness and joy in a realtionship and dismisses the very real and natural diverging of life paths.

            Til Death Do We Part is never my goal. I have had many relationships that were happy while they lasted and ended when they no longer met the needs of the individuals. These are, IMO, successful relationships.

          • Re: What do you define as “successful”?

            I agree, a relationships end does not qualify it as successful or a failure. That distinction should go with how people felt DURING the relationship.

            I have stated time and time again, My marriage ENDED. The relationship was not something I have ever regretted. The fact that my ex failed me was what ended the marriage. Actually I feel personally that the ex failed himself by getting wrapped up into an addiction and finding someone who would feed that addiction but thats a whole nother story.

            I have had relationships end, but none of them have been failures. I have learned something more about not only myself but about other people while I was in each of them. If I had learned nothing from a relationship, it would have been a failure.

          • Re: What do you define as “successful”?

            That’s the problem I have with this particular statement. It always befuddles me that if my wife had died after 5 years of marriage, no one would call the marriage a failure, but the fact that we chose to divorce, instead, makes it a “failed marriage.” And no, we did not have “til death” in our vows.

            And on the flip side of that same coin:

            Last month, my parents celebrated (if that’s the right word for it) their 46th wedding anniversary. Now, my parents don’t much like each other. They live on opposite ends of the house, and they cross paths perhaps a couple of times a day–there will be periods of time where they go for days at a stretch without talking to each other in any meaningful way. They even do separate things when they go on vacation.

            They’re still married, sure, though my mother has said point-blank that at least part of it is because separating 46 years of combined finance is just too much hassle.

            Is their relationship “successful?” I don’t think it is.

          • Re: What do you define as “successful”?

            it sounds like they are in the “habit” of being married. They have found ways to stay married so that to them its not a failure.

            One thing that kept running through my head after my ex walked out was the song from “My Fair Lady” where Professor Higgins keeps saying “I’ve grown accustomed to her face”. My marriage had passed the “successful” point but it had become a habit. I had grown accustomed to having someone else in my bed, in my house. The only success was hat I still had someone.

            Now I consider my marriage a success because the end of it allowed me to find myself. I am not “nothing” simply because I’m not married anymore. If I was it would ahve been a personal failure.

    • I agree that we create our own images, but a significant number of poly relationships that I’ve observed are subject to the whims of jealousy.

      Yep, they sure are. I would not try to argue that poly folk are immune to the ravages of jealousy, or even that jealousy is always an inappropriate response…only that it isn’t an inevitable response.

      Read the comments to any Web article about polyamory, and a surprisingly large number of people will indicate that they believe jealousy is inevitable and that under no circumstances can people not experience it. I think that’s very interesting.

  14. One of the things that consistently strikes me when I view reader response to a Web article about polyamory is how much the responses say, not about polyamory, but about the person making them. We all tend to re-create the world in our own image; “I think this is wrong because it is inevitable that someone will get jealous” translates, for example, to “I personally would be jealous, and can not conceive that another person might not be.”

    I agree that we create our own images, but a significant number of poly relationships that I’ve observed are subject to the whims of jealousy. The number of poly relationships (that I know about) that are generally successful are a small fraction of the number of poly relationships (that I know about) that are generally NOT successful. Maybe that’s just a factor of the people I know, but it certainly seems to be a theme. Poly relationships seem to be harder to handle, to me, because instead of two egos that need to be in harmony, you’ve got three, or four, or five or more. Someone always seems to end up being on the outside, looking in.

    Just an observation.

  15. The number of poly relationships (that I know about) that are generally successful are a small fraction of the number of poly relationships (that I know about) that are generally NOT successful.

    I could just as easily substitute the word “poly” for the word “monogamous” in that statement. When looking at just numbers, monogamous people are just as prone to breakups as poly people are. It’s not a relationship-structure thing, it’s an incompatible-partner thing. With the divorce rate over 50% and the rate of successive marriages rising, if we were to look at how many relationships are not “successful” (and that requires a definition too), I would have to say monogamy doesn’t hold any corner on the market either. But for some people, it seems to work.

    Polyamory is most definately not for the faint of heart. It *is* more difficult. But, my experience has shown me that when a poly relationship breaks up, it’s not because it was poly, it’s because the people who broke up were not compatible at that point in time.

    At a local poly retreat, has been building a trebuchet every year. It’s not really justifiable as poly, it’s just fun. Last year, however, we did come up with a poly metaphor for the trebuchet. Here’s what we discovered:

    Relationships are like this trebuchet. When the trebuchet is in its static state (monogamy), you can have flaws in the foundation. If the flaws are small enough, the trebuchet can continue happily being a trebuchet indefinately. But when the trebuchet becomes dynamic and in motion (adding another person), any flaws in the foundation are immediately amplified, which can cause anything from unsuccessful firings to a complete and total blow-up of the machine.

    So yes, a poly relationship can be “harder” to handle in that you need a certain set of relationship skills to keep it from blowing up. But these same skills are applicable in monogamous relationships (IMO, just as important). It’s just that mongamous people can ignore the flaws for longer and polyamory won’t allow us to live happily in ignorance.

  16. I, however, have discovered that monogamy is “harder” for me because it requires a lot more work. Polyamory is just so intuitively natural to me that trying to be monogamous is infinately more difficult, to the point of impossible for me. It’s much easier for me to be open and trusting of my partners, to be able to share with them my joy of another person, than to bottle up who I am and what I feel out of fear of their own insecurities. It’s much easier for me to confront my own fears and to help my partners work on theirs, than to ignore them and hope they go away.

    No, for me, monogamy is WAY more difficult.

  17. Re: Friends only

    I’m glad that someone else thought the same way that I do.

    Tacit, please get out this message: that you, your girlfriends, and their boyfriends, all know about each other and that you’re all comfortable with this arrangement.

    Most Americans have little experience with people who don’t share almost all of their assumptions. Some Americans won’t even spend time with others that they know is of the other political party.

  18. I’ve also discovered the “pattern”. The pattern that reporters use (because I have less experience with them than you) is the same that all average non-poly people use. Even those with poly leanings, but have no idea about poly as a philosophy and who have accepted monogamy as the default, use that pattern. I get “interviewed” on a daily basis by my co-workers just because I’m so “out”.

    Those are all the same questions in the same order that I get whenever I have a conversation that starts out “So what did you do this weekend?” “One of my boyfriends had his other girlfriend down to celebrate his birthday and we hung out all weekend eating chocolate cake.” or “I went dancing with my sweetie’s other sweetie” or any other work-safe topic I might mention. These conversations usually extend, not just an hour past what should have been a simple “what did you do this weekend” conversation, but into the next several days of work as they bring it up each time they see me.

    I often use my responses to turn around their response, to show them that they are projecting themselves and point out things that, often, they did not even realize about themselves … primarily because, in their monogamous-assumptive world, they never even questioned.

    • Re: Poly interviews

      I’ve received the same questions when I mention being poly as well. Anymore, my co-workers ask me such things as “Did you do anything this weekend that I would want to know about?”

      Interestingly when I mentioned poly to my Mom and explained what it was, she told me she really see how me being poly really fit in with who and what she knows that I am. It was a rather pleasing result to a awkward discussion.

  19. I’ve also discovered the “pattern”. The pattern that reporters use (because I have less experience with them than you) is the same that all average non-poly people use. Even those with poly leanings, but have no idea about poly as a philosophy and who have accepted monogamy as the default, use that pattern. I get “interviewed” on a daily basis by my co-workers just because I’m so “out”.

    Those are all the same questions in the same order that I get whenever I have a conversation that starts out “So what did you do this weekend?” “One of my boyfriends had his other girlfriend down to celebrate his birthday and we hung out all weekend eating chocolate cake.” or “I went dancing with my sweetie’s other sweetie” or any other work-safe topic I might mention. These conversations usually extend, not just an hour past what should have been a simple “what did you do this weekend” conversation, but into the next several days of work as they bring it up each time they see me.

    I often use my responses to turn around their response, to show them that they are projecting themselves and point out things that, often, they did not even realize about themselves … primarily because, in their monogamous-assumptive world, they never even questioned.

  20. The my-worldview-is-universal thing is highly irritating. A friend of mine who claims to be progressive and open-minded responded to my relationship explosion with “What happened was wrong and not your fault but what did you expect?”

    As if telling me that it’s not my fault somehow makes me feel better about being lied to and manipulated by my partner. Like only poly people do that.

      • Re: Amen

        I did it last year. My mom was understanding, my dad gave me the “jesus” lecture. Luckily I found a Congregation who NEVER used my polyness leading to my marriage ending as a reason to lecture me. (Unitarian Universalist BTW).

        Its tough, change the subject, talk about politics (unless it will add more fuel to a fire). Don’t let them focus on you.

        *hugs*

        I Want to add (from the reciently divorced side of me), this is also a great time to forcefully surround yourself with friends who could care less if your poly or not. Have a pot luck dinner, have a “bar crawl” night. Just stay busy and keep active and keep the positive, “good for you emotionally” type people around you as much as possible.

  21. The my-worldview-is-universal thing is highly irritating. A friend of mine who claims to be progressive and open-minded responded to my relationship explosion with “What happened was wrong and not your fault but what did you expect?”

    As if telling me that it’s not my fault somehow makes me feel better about being lied to and manipulated by my partner. Like only poly people do that.

  22. What do you define as “successful”?

    That’s the problem I have with this particular statement. It always befuddles me that if my wife had died after 5 years of marriage, no one would call the marriage a failure, but the fact that we chose to divorce, instead, makes it a “failed marriage.” And no, we did not have “til death” in our vows.

    Same for relationships. I had a wonderful poly family for 5 years with great growth, struggle, joys, and love shared. Now we’ve gone our separate ways. Does it hurt? Yes, but not because it failed. Change hurts. Growth hurts. That’s life.

  23. Re: Friends only

    yeah, they only develop what social scientists call “theory of mind” around age 2-3

    before that, a baby treats its mother the same whether she has her eyes closed or not. after that, the baby realizes that when he closes his eyes, he can’t see, so neither can she.

    It’s a whole nother step in development when you realize that the differences in people give them another, *perfectly valid* viewpoint.

    that was a fun class, the one when we read those studies. Trying to imagine how toddlers think leads to pretty interesting stuff.

  24. Re: What do you define as “successful”?

    that’s always an issue, which is why I specifically mention it 🙂 I don’t consider a relationship ending necessarily to be a “failure”. The reason *why* it ended might contribute to it being a “failure”. It all depends upon the goals the individuals set up for the relationship. In many monogamous default relationships, the “goal” is “til death do we part”, which is why an ending is seen as a “failure”. Not only is that an unrealistic goal (although a happy accident when it occurs and those involved are happy, not stuck with each other til death), I believe it is an unhealthy goal as well. It also misses an entire spectrum of “sucess” or feelings of happiness and joy in a realtionship and dismisses the very real and natural diverging of life paths.

    Til Death Do We Part is never my goal. I have had many relationships that were happy while they lasted and ended when they no longer met the needs of the individuals. These are, IMO, successful relationships.

  25. Re: Poly interviews

    I’ve received the same questions when I mention being poly as well. Anymore, my co-workers ask me such things as “Did you do anything this weekend that I would want to know about?”

    Interestingly when I mentioned poly to my Mom and explained what it was, she told me she really see how me being poly really fit in with who and what she knows that I am. It was a rather pleasing result to a awkward discussion.

  26. Instead, I think these questions serve to illuminate just how deeply ingrained cultural ideas about sex and relationship are.

    It’s amazing just how hard it is to see the water when you’re swimming in it! 🙂

    It so very hard for me, in class, to try and get other (even grad) students to understand the concept of monogamy-as-cultural-construct. There’s no way to examine it closely without hijacking the entire lecture, and I don’t want to do that to my professors.

  27. Instead, I think these questions serve to illuminate just how deeply ingrained cultural ideas about sex and relationship are.

    It’s amazing just how hard it is to see the water when you’re swimming in it! 🙂

    It so very hard for me, in class, to try and get other (even grad) students to understand the concept of monogamy-as-cultural-construct. There’s no way to examine it closely without hijacking the entire lecture, and I don’t want to do that to my professors.

  28. I should try an experiment on someone’s toddlers, and ask them in that same tone of voice about something good that they did. “Now Johnny, I see that you helped your baby sister get a toy. How do you think that makes her feel?” and see if he answers “sorry”. This question seems to be asked only when Johnny does something bad, eh? ^__^

  29. Mm yes, the jealousy thing is major. But what I’ve observed is that (manly non-poly) people don’t see jealousy as a weakness, but as a value. For example – I’m not jealous of my partner. So that means I don’t love him, or value him enough, etc., or it gets implied that I have no self-respect, because otherwise I should be jealous.

    Hm. This is NOT something we teach our kids to be, is it?

    • Ugh. I’ve seen that attitude; in fact, I’ve heard people say things like “I like when my partner is jealous because it proves he loves me.”

      Yuck.

      I hope nobody would intentionally teach such a destructive lesson…

      • Right. Honestly, I can’t tell where the disconnect takes place. We’re always telling kids to share – and it’s a painstaking lesson as they encounter greediness with toys and friends, and ultimately (hopefully) come to realize that it’s better for everyone to share.

        My bet is that it stems from the delusional idea that everyone has a “one and only” out there. Yeesh, the pressure to be someone’s “one and only” is crushing meeeeee

    • unfortunately this is my sister to a tee and now she has convinced the rest of my family that it is a genetic fact that the oldest child in a family doesn’t comprehend sharing. she insists that the showing of jealousy is a test of how much someone loves you. now she is ingraining these broken concepts onto my nephew. unfortunately she is a better saleswoman then i am. i am floundering in my arguments to combat the damage she is doing.

  30. Mm yes, the jealousy thing is major. But what I’ve observed is that (manly non-poly) people don’t see jealousy as a weakness, but as a value. For example – I’m not jealous of my partner. So that means I don’t love him, or value him enough, etc., or it gets implied that I have no self-respect, because otherwise I should be jealous.

    Hm. This is NOT something we teach our kids to be, is it?

  31. re: Friends Only

    I think these questions serve to illuminate just how deeply ingrained cultural ideas about sex and relationship are.

    I agree with your decision to make this post friends-only, because I think that, right now, the “FAQ” are the ones that random people who aren’t a part of the poly community *need* answered. It’s a matter of exposure, in new places and to larger and larger audiences, and consistent positive answers are something that is much-needed to help with poly “PR”. Those ingrained cultural ideas need to be hit with a steady stream of alternative messages to even begin to change.

    Certainly, if you were being interviewed for a “poly-aware” publication, you might skip some of the newbie stuff, assuming the audience already gets the basic concept. But for general public consumption, conveying the basic concept is the whole point!

    Sure, it gets boring answering the same questions over and over, but the up-side is, the more times you answer them, the more likely the concept will sink in. There are studies in advertising that people need to be hit with a certain number of “ad impressions” before they really become aware of the message. I think all cultural change is the same. People need to be made aware of a concept a certain number of times before they will even give it the validity of consideration. Then they need to hear about it a certain number of times beyond that before they can be said to truly “get” it. Now, if it happens to be something that hits home, strikes a resonance in them, or echoes something they’ve already come to on their own, then maybe they can skip some steps. But for those who aren’t already on the path to discovering Poly for themselves, they can only come to understanding through repeated, consistent messages.

    So, go you! 🙂 Keep it up! Besides, they already get all those answers via your website, they just want to hear you say them because it needs to be repeated in order to sink in. It helps them to have a human voice to convey that the thoughts and feelings you’re expressing are genuine.

    • Re: Friends Only

      That was my reasoning exactly–I don’t want to discourage people from asking these questions, even though I’ve heard them before, because I think they’re good questions and they need to get out there.

      Unfortunately, in most cases an article about polyamory tends to be too short to give enough context for folks to understand the answers, which I think is why the comments that end up getting attached to any Web story about polyamory tend to be pretty predictable. If an interviewer asks “Well, don’t you get jealous?” there simply isn’t enough space to deconstruct people’s conception about jealousy, and “no” doesn’t really cut it as an answer.

  32. re: Friends Only

    I think these questions serve to illuminate just how deeply ingrained cultural ideas about sex and relationship are.

    I agree with your decision to make this post friends-only, because I think that, right now, the “FAQ” are the ones that random people who aren’t a part of the poly community *need* answered. It’s a matter of exposure, in new places and to larger and larger audiences, and consistent positive answers are something that is much-needed to help with poly “PR”. Those ingrained cultural ideas need to be hit with a steady stream of alternative messages to even begin to change.

    Certainly, if you were being interviewed for a “poly-aware” publication, you might skip some of the newbie stuff, assuming the audience already gets the basic concept. But for general public consumption, conveying the basic concept is the whole point!

    Sure, it gets boring answering the same questions over and over, but the up-side is, the more times you answer them, the more likely the concept will sink in. There are studies in advertising that people need to be hit with a certain number of “ad impressions” before they really become aware of the message. I think all cultural change is the same. People need to be made aware of a concept a certain number of times before they will even give it the validity of consideration. Then they need to hear about it a certain number of times beyond that before they can be said to truly “get” it. Now, if it happens to be something that hits home, strikes a resonance in them, or echoes something they’ve already come to on their own, then maybe they can skip some steps. But for those who aren’t already on the path to discovering Poly for themselves, they can only come to understanding through repeated, consistent messages.

    So, go you! 🙂 Keep it up! Besides, they already get all those answers via your website, they just want to hear you say them because it needs to be repeated in order to sink in. It helps them to have a human voice to convey that the thoughts and feelings you’re expressing are genuine.

  33. “I think this is wrong because it is inevitable that someone will get jealous” translates, for example, to “I personally would be jealous, and can not conceive that another person might not be.”

    And that also indicates “I could not deal with jealousy, therefore it is bad and no one can deal with it.”

  34. “I think this is wrong because it is inevitable that someone will get jealous” translates, for example, to “I personally would be jealous, and can not conceive that another person might not be.”

    And that also indicates “I could not deal with jealousy, therefore it is bad and no one can deal with it.”

  35. Re: Friends only

    Or maybe, instead of opening up this post, it would be a good idea to write up a post with answers to some of those common questions, so that interviewers who look before the interview will already have some basic understanding of the common misconceptions.

  36. “I think this is wrong because it is inevitable that someone will get jealous” translates, for example, to “I personally would be jealous, and can not conceive that another person might not be.”

    This attitude always cracks me up because almost all monogamous couples experience jealousy at some point. And yet, we don’t say that monogamy is “wrong” because it leads to jealousy.

  37. “I think this is wrong because it is inevitable that someone will get jealous” translates, for example, to “I personally would be jealous, and can not conceive that another person might not be.”

    This attitude always cracks me up because almost all monogamous couples experience jealousy at some point. And yet, we don’t say that monogamy is “wrong” because it leads to jealousy.

  38. Re: What do you define as “successful”?

    I agree, a relationships end does not qualify it as successful or a failure. That distinction should go with how people felt DURING the relationship.

    I have stated time and time again, My marriage ENDED. The relationship was not something I have ever regretted. The fact that my ex failed me was what ended the marriage. Actually I feel personally that the ex failed himself by getting wrapped up into an addiction and finding someone who would feed that addiction but thats a whole nother story.

    I have had relationships end, but none of them have been failures. I have learned something more about not only myself but about other people while I was in each of them. If I had learned nothing from a relationship, it would have been a failure.

  39. Re: Amen

    I did it last year. My mom was understanding, my dad gave me the “jesus” lecture. Luckily I found a Congregation who NEVER used my polyness leading to my marriage ending as a reason to lecture me. (Unitarian Universalist BTW).

    Its tough, change the subject, talk about politics (unless it will add more fuel to a fire). Don’t let them focus on you.

    *hugs*

    I Want to add (from the reciently divorced side of me), this is also a great time to forcefully surround yourself with friends who could care less if your poly or not. Have a pot luck dinner, have a “bar crawl” night. Just stay busy and keep active and keep the positive, “good for you emotionally” type people around you as much as possible.

  40. Re: Friends only

    oh like this?
    http://www.xeromag.com/fvpoly.html

    I think he made his choice for his own reasons. I agree that the media does the same “OMG it’s wrong, OH the jealousy, What about the children” dance every time the subject comes up.

    until someone says
    “look I could spend an hour of your time trying to explain a lifestyle choice to you or you can just accept that it is MY choice and it works for ME just like monogamy works for you. OR we can end this right now before you tell the world what spiteful, arrogant sinners we are despite all of the valid arguments that have been presented by hundreds of people against that “fact”.
    We are always going to have to explain to others what comes naturally to many of us (poly people).

  41. following the digression

    some folks use it both ways. I’ve seen the good variety, like “why, little Johnny, I see you gave your little sister half your cookie. Do you think she liked that? Look at her smiling. Janie, did you like the cookie? We say ‘thank you’ when someone does something nice for us. Say thank-you to Johnny.” &etc.

    Good or bad, it’s most useful when the adult models not only recognizing others’ POVs, but how to use that awareness in a healthy way.

    I’ve also seen kids who’ve clearly had “how do you think that makes him feel” used incorrectly & without modeling healthy relating skills so they know what to do instead of whapping the other kid in the head with the toy… so when one asks “Little Janie, how do you think it makes Johnny feel to be whapped on the head?” she comes back with “he likes it!” presumably because either a) she likes it so he must too–erroneous over-identification or b)he keeps ‘asking for it’ or c)it’s the only thing she knows to do & so must justify it.

  42. It might have some to do with how small children are trained to be sensitive to others’ feelings.

    Hmm.

    I can see where empathy and projection might be closely related, but I don’t think they’re actually the same thing.

    Empathy is the ability to understand a person’s current emotional state based on our own experiences: “Jane’s parents just died; Jane is crying; I would be unhappy if my parents just died; therefore, I can understand Jane’s emotion.” But projection is slightly different: “If my partner had another lover, I would be wildly jealous; therefore, all other people in all circumstances whose partners have other lovers will feel jealous as well.”

    In a way, it’s a difference between a descriptive approach to empathy (I see another person feeling some way; I can put myself in that person’s shoes; when i do that, it allows me to understand those feelings”) and a prescriptive approach to empathy (“I feel thus-and-such in this situation; therefore, everyone in this situation feels thus-and-such”). I don’t think being taught to empathize with another person’s feelings, or even to try to predict what another person might feel if we hit them over the head with a hammer, necessarily leads to projecting one’s feelings onto other people.

  43. The inevitability of jealousy is rooted, I think, in the idea that the trigger of jealousy is the cause of the jealousy. People will believe, for example, “Jealousy is caused by my lover kissing another person,” without the introspection to see that, actually, jealousy is caused by the other feelings that arise in me (be they insecurity or fear of loss or feelings that someone else is taking what’s mine or whatever) that are aroused by the kissing of the other person.

    It’s an important distinction, I think, because a person who thinks that jealousy is “caused by” one’s partner kissing someone else will not see that a different emotional reaction is possible, nor be able to see how to begin to resolve the jealousy.

    One of the more frustrating things I encounter is people who say “I am just a jealous-type person,” as if it’s a question of genetics, as inevitable as hair color. No, scratch that, people are more willing to do things to chane their hair color than they are willing to examine their own emotional responses to the world.

  44. Of course they’re not the same thing! But I think that when we rear children, we tend to fail to take it to the next step. What I described is appropriate to a very small child. I don’t often see it taken further.

    Don’t you see children treated negatively every day for having just tastes that are different from their parents?

  45. Re: Friends only

    I went back and forth about making it public or friends-only.

    In the end, I opted to keep it friends-only for two reasons: I don’t want to give anyone the false impression that I’m being snarky about the questions I’m asked, and I don’t want to discourage people from asking these questions. They’re predictable questions, but even though they’re sometimes so far off base they can feel annoying (“Will you ever settle down?” and “Why isn’t one person enough?” are the ones that tend to get me), they’re still important. I don’t want to give an interviewer the impression that these questions shouldn’t be asked, or that I’m tired of answering them, or that this ground has been covered already. It HAS been covered already, but its’s still the ground that most people want to know about.

  46. The sleeping-with-several people thing is something that people can grasp–even when they’re nominally monogamous.

    Odds are pretty good that a person who claims to be monogamous has engaged in cheating. A monogamous person can believe that cheating is morally wrong or whatever, while still believing that the unique, special circumstances surrounding his own cheating justified it made it OK–people are skilled at rationalization.

    So people have a context for understanding “I’m sleeping with other people but they don’t know.” The paradigm-busting part, the part that people don’t have a context for, is “I have two lovers and they both like each other.”

  47. I don’t see children every day in general; I don’t have any children, and I’m only very rarely in environments where there are children around. 🙂 It’s not hard for me to believe, people being what they are, that parents will punish children for adopting different ideas or even different tastes, though.

    …does that make me cynical?

  48. Re: Friends Only

    That was my reasoning exactly–I don’t want to discourage people from asking these questions, even though I’ve heard them before, because I think they’re good questions and they need to get out there.

    Unfortunately, in most cases an article about polyamory tends to be too short to give enough context for folks to understand the answers, which I think is why the comments that end up getting attached to any Web story about polyamory tend to be pretty predictable. If an interviewer asks “Well, don’t you get jealous?” there simply isn’t enough space to deconstruct people’s conception about jealousy, and “no” doesn’t really cut it as an answer.

  49. People are scared of any unpleasant emotion, including fear. “I could never do that, it’s too scary” is distressingly common a response to many, many things, I think.

  50. I agree that we create our own images, but a significant number of poly relationships that I’ve observed are subject to the whims of jealousy.

    Yep, they sure are. I would not try to argue that poly folk are immune to the ravages of jealousy, or even that jealousy is always an inappropriate response…only that it isn’t an inevitable response.

    Read the comments to any Web article about polyamory, and a surprisingly large number of people will indicate that they believe jealousy is inevitable and that under no circumstances can people not experience it. I think that’s very interesting.

  51. Re: What do you define as “successful”?

    That’s the problem I have with this particular statement. It always befuddles me that if my wife had died after 5 years of marriage, no one would call the marriage a failure, but the fact that we chose to divorce, instead, makes it a “failed marriage.” And no, we did not have “til death” in our vows.

    And on the flip side of that same coin:

    Last month, my parents celebrated (if that’s the right word for it) their 46th wedding anniversary. Now, my parents don’t much like each other. They live on opposite ends of the house, and they cross paths perhaps a couple of times a day–there will be periods of time where they go for days at a stretch without talking to each other in any meaningful way. They even do separate things when they go on vacation.

    They’re still married, sure, though my mother has said point-blank that at least part of it is because separating 46 years of combined finance is just too much hassle.

    Is their relationship “successful?” I don’t think it is.

  52. Ugh. I’ve seen that attitude; in fact, I’ve heard people say things like “I like when my partner is jealous because it proves he loves me.”

    Yuck.

    I hope nobody would intentionally teach such a destructive lesson…

  53. Re: following the digression

    so when one asks “Little Janie, how do you think it makes Johnny feel to be whapped on the head?” she comes back with “he likes it!”

    Just the thing for the budding sociopath in the family. 🙂

  54. Right. Honestly, I can’t tell where the disconnect takes place. We’re always telling kids to share – and it’s a painstaking lesson as they encounter greediness with toys and friends, and ultimately (hopefully) come to realize that it’s better for everyone to share.

    My bet is that it stems from the delusional idea that everyone has a “one and only” out there. Yeesh, the pressure to be someone’s “one and only” is crushing meeeeee

  55. Yes they do. It is interesting that they assume that fear is a normal part of marriage, such as “cold feet”, but they just handle it, but jealousy is the deal breaker.

    “I’m jealous of something they are doing, that means it is wrong and the relationship is broken”

    Instead of saying

    “Oh its just relationship jealousy, they will get over it”.

    I know that a lot of the reason the last few months of my marriage was so horrible was because of jealousy. I was jealous of the new woman and she was jealous of what I already had. She lied and cheated to get what she wanted and she got it. I ran away and hid. fortunately I ended up in a better place because of that loss, but it took awhile to realize that.

    Since then I have learned not only that being jealous is ok, but that it’s a symptom not the problem and I am also learning how I personally should deal with it.

    as for things being too scary… I usually tell people, “I went through hell in the last two years, THAT was scary and I never thought I would survive it, after that NOTHING is too scary.”

  56. Re: What do you define as “successful”?

    it sounds like they are in the “habit” of being married. They have found ways to stay married so that to them its not a failure.

    One thing that kept running through my head after my ex walked out was the song from “My Fair Lady” where Professor Higgins keeps saying “I’ve grown accustomed to her face”. My marriage had passed the “successful” point but it had become a habit. I had grown accustomed to having someone else in my bed, in my house. The only success was hat I still had someone.

    Now I consider my marriage a success because the end of it allowed me to find myself. I am not “nothing” simply because I’m not married anymore. If I was it would ahve been a personal failure.

  57. jealous-type-person

    I think of being a “jealous-type person” as having a limiting handicap. It does make things others take for granted more difficult, but doesn’t make them impossible. The ability to overcome the handicap depends on first recognizing the differences between cultural assumptions about what people like oneself can/should do, and what one is actually capable of and willing for.

    Probably most “jealous-type people” are excusing their neglect of personal responsibility by saying it’s out of their control. Some, though, may be saying they need more assistance or rehabilitation than they can do themselves, to get independent of the limitations of their condition… but much of what’s put forth as “assistance” for overcoming mental/emotional or physical limitations, is quackery. Just use this special pill/ meditation/ surgery/ diet/ communication strategy/ hot bi babe…
    Even very well-educated people have difficulty separating a useful technique from a scam, in medicine or psychology.

    I think it’s very interesting that Tacit gets interviewed by WebMD. They’re generally a fairly reliable source for medical issues; it would be interesting to see psych issues get similar broadly public sensible treatment.

  58. unfortunately this is my sister to a tee and now she has convinced the rest of my family that it is a genetic fact that the oldest child in a family doesn’t comprehend sharing. she insists that the showing of jealousy is a test of how much someone loves you. now she is ingraining these broken concepts onto my nephew. unfortunately she is a better saleswoman then i am. i am floundering in my arguments to combat the damage she is doing.

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