Some thoughts on memes

So I’ve seen seeing this “crush tag” thing floating around LiveJournal, and visited the site and got one. It looks like this:


Crush this person!
Get your own ThisCrush.com CrushTag!

Got me to thinking about online memes in general. Not just memes in the sense of “little things you put in your blog that other people see and put in their blog as well,” but memes in the original sense of “self-replicating ideas.”

There are a lot of them out there. Most of them are offered up with little or no supporting evidence; many of them, such as the meme that vaccinations are a conspiracy on the part of pharmaceutical companies to “keep people sick,” spread despite a great deal of contradictory evidence.

The interesting thing about the Internet is that when a person visits a Web site, his assessment of how reliable and trustworthy that Web site is depends a great deal of how the Web site looks and not at all on who wrote the content of the Web site. This creates all kinds of problems for security people; people who fall for scam “phishing” sites will ignore the URL in the address bar and base their decision on whether to trust the site solely on the way the site looks. Since copying an entire PayPal or bank site can be done with only a couple mouse clicks, that’s bad news for anyone who cares about security.

But issues of phishing aside, the trust people place in Web sites often interests me, because the way that people make their decisions seems opaque to me. For example: the meme site that generated the crush icon above offers a space for a person to type a username, a password, and an email address. Nothing else. Since many people use the same password for all their online activities, it would be trivial to create a meme site whose purpose was to steal passwords from the users. (Note that I am not saying the “crushme” site does this!)

I’ve been debating, on and off, for several years the idea of putting up a Web site that makes some totally outrageous claim, probably about medicine or health. I’ve been thinking of talking about non-existent studies that support whatever the claim is, putting pictures that claim to support the claim, making emotional arguments in favor of the claim; all for the purpose of seeing how many people will believe anything that presses their emotional triggers, even if the claim is pure fabrication made of whole cloth without one single shred of evidence to support it. I have a suspicion the results would depress me.

You can click on my crush link if you like anyway. 🙂

50 thoughts on “Some thoughts on memes

  1. memes in the original sense of “self-replicating ideas.”
    Isn’t part of the original sense also that they affect the survival of the carriers, and thus the carriers ability to spread them, just like genes?

    • Not necessarily. Memes strive (if I may anthropomorphize them for a moment) only to propagate themselves, with no particular regard for the carriers. While some memes (e.g.-“drink upstream from where you poo”) propagate because they enhance the survivability and reproducibility of their carriers, others (like the aforementioned “vaccines are bad” meme) do so to the detriment of their carriers. In that way they’re much like viruses.

    • Some memes affect the survivability of their carrier; some don’t. In the original sense, a “meme” was any self-replicating idea, regardless of the effect (or lack thereof) on the person holding the idea.

      What I think is interesting is the way entire cultures can grow up around memes. Christianity, for example, represents a very complex and sophisticated meme, and most Western cultures have been so distorted by this meme that the meme has actually changed society in such a way as to promote its own survivability. In that sense, the people who carry the meme have changed to affect the survival of the meme itself, rather than the other way around.

      • Hmm. I’d argue that religious memes in particular probably have to adapt to suit their carriers’ needs if they are to survive long-term. You could even characterize that as the difference between a cult (in the popular sense of a somewhat fringy minority religion) and a religion proper — the latter have evolved to suit their carriers’ needs as well as their own.

        Consider the dozens (probably hundreds) of weird Christian heresies that have sprung up in the last couple of millenia. The majority are extinct, and some of that is certainly due to direct memetic competition (i.e. social disapproval, evangelism, Inquisitions) but note that the surviving ones are all relatively benign in terms of affecting their lay followers’ survival and reproduction. This is even true for some sects that are anything but in their original incarnation, such as Seventh-Day Adventism and Mormonism.

        What’s that, if not memes adapting to suit their hosts?

        • They have to adapt enough to allow their carriers to build reasonably stable societies while still carrying the meme, but in many cases I’d argue that religious memes are often detrimental to the host. A religious meme that causes its host to plant pipe bombs in gay bars or shoot abortion clinic doctors will likely adversely affect the host; a religious meme that causes the host to blow himself up in an outdoor cafe will definitely adversely affect the host.

          I would also say that the surviving Christian memes have significantly shaped (I’d use the term ‘warped,’ actually) their carriers’ society. In fact, most large-scale religious memes will alter the hosts’ society in such a way that the hosts will directly or indirectly discriminate against individuals who don’t carry the meme, which is a splendid example of how a meme can alter its hosts in ways that promote its own survival.

  2. memes in the original sense of “self-replicating ideas.”
    Isn’t part of the original sense also that they affect the survival of the carriers, and thus the carriers ability to spread them, just like genes?

    • Heh. That’s funny, but it’s not really the kind of thing I’m talking about. Satire doesn’t count; I’m thinking of creating a Web site designed to convince people that some over-the-top, unsupported claim is actually serious, in the manner that the “vaccination causes autism” or “some people are harmed by the radiation from wireless routers” or “GM food is bad for you” sites claim.

  3. Yeah, I use Password Composer to make that somewhat more difficult. You could probably use that knowledge, plus the algorithm and my password for one site, to figure out one of the passwords I seed Password Composer with. But it’s at least one step further away than most crackers are willing to bother with.

  4. Yeah, I use Password Composer to make that somewhat more difficult. You could probably use that knowledge, plus the algorithm and my password for one site, to figure out one of the passwords I seed Password Composer with. But it’s at least one step further away than most crackers are willing to bother with.

  5. There was another “crush” meme that went around about 3 years ago (that long ago? Apparently, according to another friend). LJcrush.com. What they did, afterwards, was offer to sell you the list of people who said they had a crush on you. If have to wonder if this new crush site are the same people…

    http://mangosteen.livejournal.com/142335.html has a fun comment on this meme.

    • You know, I thought about that when I saw this new “crush” meme. In fact, I ran a whois of both URLs, because I was curious if it was the same guy.

      Two different guys, as it turns out. And the LJ Crush Web site, together with the site hosting the name servers for it, are now down, interestingly enough.

  6. There was another “crush” meme that went around about 3 years ago (that long ago? Apparently, according to another friend). LJcrush.com. What they did, afterwards, was offer to sell you the list of people who said they had a crush on you. If have to wonder if this new crush site are the same people…

    http://mangosteen.livejournal.com/142335.html has a fun comment on this meme.

  7. I tried to do the crush thing, just because your obviously extensive knowledge about sex is a turn on when I’m around pretentious college boys who know nothing about the female anatomy or polyamory or kinkiness…

    but there was this animated ad with an incessantly buzzing mosquito I was supposed to smack to win an ipod or some shit and my brain can’t handle useless annoying incessant noises.

    /crush confession

  8. I tried to do the crush thing, just because your obviously extensive knowledge about sex is a turn on when I’m around pretentious college boys who know nothing about the female anatomy or polyamory or kinkiness…

    but there was this animated ad with an incessantly buzzing mosquito I was supposed to smack to win an ipod or some shit and my brain can’t handle useless annoying incessant noises.

    /crush confession

  9. just pretend the “I” was a subtle link telling who I am. I have no idea why it previewed as a working link but did some stupid parentheses bull. Ah well, life goes on.

  10. Not necessarily. Memes strive (if I may anthropomorphize them for a moment) only to propagate themselves, with no particular regard for the carriers. While some memes (e.g.-“drink upstream from where you poo”) propagate because they enhance the survivability and reproducibility of their carriers, others (like the aforementioned “vaccines are bad” meme) do so to the detriment of their carriers. In that way they’re much like viruses.

  11. If only I’d known years ago that crushing you was simply a matter of pushing a button! 😉

    Semi-related side note: Command & Conquer 3 is coming out very soon, and judging by the demo it’s mightily impressive!

  12. If only I’d known years ago that crushing you was simply a matter of pushing a button! 😉

    Semi-related side note: Command & Conquer 3 is coming out very soon, and judging by the demo it’s mightily impressive!

  13. You know, I find it incredibly interesting that you mentioned this, because I just investigated the crush thingummy myself from a friend’s LJ, and when I first saw it, I thought, “Wait a minute… is it seriously asking me for my LiveJournal username and password?” Even after I realized that it wants you to create a new account just on their site, it dawned on me as well that it would, indeed, be stupendously easy to just check the referrer logs on what page is loading the crush image, get the person’s LJ username (if they gave a different one anyway) and compromise their account.

    Also, did anyone else look at the image and think “Crush…? You can’t squish people over the internet.”

  14. You know, I find it incredibly interesting that you mentioned this, because I just investigated the crush thingummy myself from a friend’s LJ, and when I first saw it, I thought, “Wait a minute… is it seriously asking me for my LiveJournal username and password?” Even after I realized that it wants you to create a new account just on their site, it dawned on me as well that it would, indeed, be stupendously easy to just check the referrer logs on what page is loading the crush image, get the person’s LJ username (if they gave a different one anyway) and compromise their account.

    Also, did anyone else look at the image and think “Crush…? You can’t squish people over the internet.”

  15. “The interesting thing about the Internet is that when a person visits a Web site, his assessment of how reliable and trustworthy that Web site is depends a great deal of how the Web site looks and not at all on who wrote the content of the Web site.”

    I’ve actually found that among the less computer-literate segment of the population, the opposite is true. They seem more inclined to believe that anything that comes off of a website is just someone’s ramblings on a subject and can’t have any basis in fact. It doesn’t matter if it’s the Cornell University College of Veterinary Medicine’s research site, the less computer-savy people will believe their copy of Veterinarian’s Guide for Horse Owners (written in the 1970’s, published in 1980 and now woefully out of date) over the website simply due to it being hard-copy, published, written word over a website. Of course, these are also the same people who tend to believe that chat rooms only contain pedophiles looking for eight year olds to hit on.

    “You can’t squish people over the internet.”

    Wouldn’t it be nice if you could. 😉

    • In a case where information on the Internet is compared to information in print, that’s likely true–people will tend, in the absence of anything else, to put more trust in the information in print.

      In phishing scams, though, people tend to base their judgment strictly on how “professional” they believe the site looks–for example, whether or not it has official-looking logos and such–and will not consider things like what the URL of te site is or whether they see the little padlock indicating a secure connection. And that’s kind of depressing.

  16. “The interesting thing about the Internet is that when a person visits a Web site, his assessment of how reliable and trustworthy that Web site is depends a great deal of how the Web site looks and not at all on who wrote the content of the Web site.”

    I’ve actually found that among the less computer-literate segment of the population, the opposite is true. They seem more inclined to believe that anything that comes off of a website is just someone’s ramblings on a subject and can’t have any basis in fact. It doesn’t matter if it’s the Cornell University College of Veterinary Medicine’s research site, the less computer-savy people will believe their copy of Veterinarian’s Guide for Horse Owners (written in the 1970’s, published in 1980 and now woefully out of date) over the website simply due to it being hard-copy, published, written word over a website. Of course, these are also the same people who tend to believe that chat rooms only contain pedophiles looking for eight year olds to hit on.

    “You can’t squish people over the internet.”

    Wouldn’t it be nice if you could. 😉

  17. Some memes affect the survivability of their carrier; some don’t. In the original sense, a “meme” was any self-replicating idea, regardless of the effect (or lack thereof) on the person holding the idea.

    What I think is interesting is the way entire cultures can grow up around memes. Christianity, for example, represents a very complex and sophisticated meme, and most Western cultures have been so distorted by this meme that the meme has actually changed society in such a way as to promote its own survivability. In that sense, the people who carry the meme have changed to affect the survival of the meme itself, rather than the other way around.

  18. Heh. That’s funny, but it’s not really the kind of thing I’m talking about. Satire doesn’t count; I’m thinking of creating a Web site designed to convince people that some over-the-top, unsupported claim is actually serious, in the manner that the “vaccination causes autism” or “some people are harmed by the radiation from wireless routers” or “GM food is bad for you” sites claim.

  19. What a slick little piece of work! Unfortunately, I use a lot of different computers, and it’s not practical for me to install it on all of them. 🙁 It’s a great idea, though.

  20. You know, I thought about that when I saw this new “crush” meme. In fact, I ran a whois of both URLs, because I was curious if it was the same guy.

    Two different guys, as it turns out. And the LJ Crush Web site, together with the site hosting the name servers for it, are now down, interestingly enough.

  21. In a case where information on the Internet is compared to information in print, that’s likely true–people will tend, in the absence of anything else, to put more trust in the information in print.

    In phishing scams, though, people tend to base their judgment strictly on how “professional” they believe the site looks–for example, whether or not it has official-looking logos and such–and will not consider things like what the URL of te site is or whether they see the little padlock indicating a secure connection. And that’s kind of depressing.

  22. I’m actually kind of surprised, truth be told, that we haven’t seen widespread LJ account-stealing scams that work that way. Seems like it’d be trivial, and likely quite successful.

  23. I have a password that I use ONLY for these silly little websites that are pure glurge and have no link to any personal information. It’s still 7 characters long, a mix of uppercase, lowercase and numbers in a non-word sequence. But I use this one specifically for web accounts that I don’t care if they get stolen or hacked because the account does not have my real name, address, bank info, etc., nor is it stored on my computer in a file or written on paper anywhere. My important accounts use several passwords all 11+ characters long with the mix of upper/lowercase/numbers/nonsense words, again, not stored in a digital file or written on paper, and none include things like my birthdate or social security number or phone number.

  24. I have a password that I use ONLY for these silly little websites that are pure glurge and have no link to any personal information. It’s still 7 characters long, a mix of uppercase, lowercase and numbers in a non-word sequence. But I use this one specifically for web accounts that I don’t care if they get stolen or hacked because the account does not have my real name, address, bank info, etc., nor is it stored on my computer in a file or written on paper anywhere. My important accounts use several passwords all 11+ characters long with the mix of upper/lowercase/numbers/nonsense words, again, not stored in a digital file or written on paper, and none include things like my birthdate or social security number or phone number.

  25. Hmm. I’d argue that religious memes in particular probably have to adapt to suit their carriers’ needs if they are to survive long-term. You could even characterize that as the difference between a cult (in the popular sense of a somewhat fringy minority religion) and a religion proper — the latter have evolved to suit their carriers’ needs as well as their own.

    Consider the dozens (probably hundreds) of weird Christian heresies that have sprung up in the last couple of millenia. The majority are extinct, and some of that is certainly due to direct memetic competition (i.e. social disapproval, evangelism, Inquisitions) but note that the surviving ones are all relatively benign in terms of affecting their lay followers’ survival and reproduction. This is even true for some sects that are anything but in their original incarnation, such as Seventh-Day Adventism and Mormonism.

    What’s that, if not memes adapting to suit their hosts?

  26. They have to adapt enough to allow their carriers to build reasonably stable societies while still carrying the meme, but in many cases I’d argue that religious memes are often detrimental to the host. A religious meme that causes its host to plant pipe bombs in gay bars or shoot abortion clinic doctors will likely adversely affect the host; a religious meme that causes the host to blow himself up in an outdoor cafe will definitely adversely affect the host.

    I would also say that the surviving Christian memes have significantly shaped (I’d use the term ‘warped,’ actually) their carriers’ society. In fact, most large-scale religious memes will alter the hosts’ society in such a way that the hosts will directly or indirectly discriminate against individuals who don’t carry the meme, which is a splendid example of how a meme can alter its hosts in ways that promote its own survival.

  27. Yanno, I only just now figured out what you meant by the buzzing mosquito thing; I’ve now seen that banner ad, and, boy, you aren’t kidding. It’s INTENSELY annoying. Refreshing the page I saw it on made it go away, thank God.

    And also: Awwwww. 😀

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