I want to like Dan Savage.
Really, I do. He’s witty and irreverent and often the things he says are right on the money.
But every now and then, he says something that leaves me scratching my head and wondering what color the sky is on his planet. He has in the last few years backtracked from the notion that there’s no such thing as bisexuality (a claim that seems so absurd on the face of it that it’s hard for me to understand why it still has any currency whatsoever), but when it comes to polyamory, it’s hard to find anything to like about his ideas.
Recently, he penned a column in which he asserted point-blank that polyamory is not an orientation:
Poly is not a sexual identity, PP, it’s not a sexual orientation. It’s not something you are, it’s something you do. There’s no such thing as a person who is “a poly,” just as there’s no such thing as a person who is “a monogamous.” Polyamorous and monogamous are adjectives, not nouns. There are only people—gay, straight, bi—and some people are in monogamous relationships, some are in open relationships, some are in polyamorous relationships, some are in monogamish relationships, some are in four-star-general relationships. These are relationship models, PP, not sexual identities.
What’s most interesting about this is that it mirrors almost precisely the attitude of folks who believe that homosexuality is an activity, not an orientation–that there is no such thing as “a gay” or “a straight” but merely those who engage in homosexual activities and those who don’t. Dan Savage’s words would be right at home in Ministry Today Magazine, which ran an article that claimed something similar about sexual orientation:
The language of “orientation” has allowed us to relinquish our responsibility for specific behaviors, to psychologize our conduct and to label each other as drunkards, abusers, adulterers, liars, homosexuals and so on, based on the sins we are most likely to commit. This system is convenient both for those who do not struggle with any of the sins that happen to be “socially-unacceptable” at the moment and for those looking for an external excuse for their sinful behavior.
This notion is a standard part of gay “conversion therapies” as well, many of which make claims such as “There is no such thing as a homosexual man” and “There are no homosexuals, there are only people with homosexual problems.”
Ideas like this are founded in a worldview that is remarkably resilient in the face of contradictory evidence. No matter how many people claim to have been born gay, religious conservatives hang on to the notion that there is no such thing as a homosexual; no matter how many people claim to be polyamorous, there are folks who stubbornly cling to the notion that polyamory is something we do rather than something we are.
Now, in a twisted kind of way, there is something like a kernel of truth to this. There are only people, and some are in gay relationships, and some are in straight relationships, and some have had partners of various different sexes, sexual identities, and gender identities…but in a sense, all of these things might be described as “activities.” A gay man is, presumably, physically capable of sexual contact with a woman; a straight man is physically capable of sexual contact with another man.
Similarly, people who are strongly polyamorous are physically capable of having only one romantic partner, and people who are nominally monogamous are physically capable of having multiple lovers.
But such a view is facile. A gay man might possess the physical capability of having sexual intercourse with a woman, but what that ignores is that man might not be capable of being happy in a sexual relationship with a woman. It will probably feel on some level deeply unsatisfying, if not downright unnatural, for a gay man to have a relationship with a woman; and such a relationship would not satisfy the basic needs he has, just like a relationship with another man would likely be profoundly unsatisfying to a straight man.
The same is true of polyamorous relationships. I could no more be happy in a monogamous relationship than I could be in a relationship with another man; such a relationship would feel, on a basic level that seems to have nothing to do with conscious choice, deeply unnatural, constricting, and wrong to me.
I’ve always been this way. There has never been a time in my life when monogamy made any sense to me, much less seemed like a desirable thing. As a young child, I could not understand the fairy tales about the princess choosing between two princes; since princesses live in castles, it seemed like there was plenty of room for both of them! When I started becoming aware that boys and girls were different, it baffled me why I would be expected to want a partner who belonged only to me.
Some folks argue that the existence of bisexuality proves there’s no such thing as innate sexual orientation. This claim makes little sense; the fact that some people are not strongly “wired” one way or the other does not prove that there’s no such thing as people who are. (In technical terms, this argument commits the inductive fallacy of division; the idea that innate tendency toward an exclusive sexual orientation exists in humans does not necessarily imply that every single human has such innate exclusive sexual orientation.)
Similarly, the fact that some folks seem to be able to move between polyamorous and monogamous relationships does not demonstrate that, for other folks, a tendency toward monogamy or polyamory is an immutable factor in their psychological makeup. There are people who can only be happy in same-sex relationships, people who can only be happy in opposite-sex relationships, and people who can (to various degrees with various partners) be happy in relationships with a wide range of partners of sexual identities and orientations. Similarly, there are people who can only be happy in polyamorous relationships, people who can only be happy in monogamous relationships, and people who, under the right conditions and with the right partner(s), be happy in a number of different relationship configurations.
All of this seems obvious to me.
Now, to be fair, I have a bit of an advantage here. I am completely, absolutely, irredeemably straight; no matter how hard I try, the notion of having another male lover simply does not work for me, even as an abstract thought experiment. (That’s a bug, not a feature; it means there’s an entire realm of sexuality I am cut off from, and I resent that.) This makes it easy for me to understand that there might be people who are gay and feel the same way I do about having an opposite-sex partner.
Similarly, I am and have always been polyamorous; it is not possible for me to function in a monogamous relationship and be happy, any more than it would be possible for me to function in a same-sex relationship and be happy; therefore, it’s not difficult to imagine that there are people who feel the same way about monogamy.
Dan Savage isn’t polyamorous…but he isn’t monogamous, either. He’s described himself as “monogamish,” which as near as I can tell means something like “potentially sexually open in some limited ways.” My impression is that he doesn’t feel strongly compelled to polyamory or monogamy; ergo, he doesn’t have the personal experience that such strong compulsions exist. We all tend to re-create the world in our own image. Perhaps he can be excused for thinking that there’s no such thing as “a polyamory” or “a monogamy,” since he personally seems to be neither of those things.
But just as the existence of bisexuality does not prove that sexual orientation is a myth, the existence of people who can take or leave monogamy doesn’t prove that relationship orientation is a myth.
Ultimately, in a moral sense, it doesn’t much matter whether things like sexual orientation or relationship orientation are innate. Well, I mean, it does in the sense that the more we understand about who we are as a species, the better that is…but from a moral or legislative standpoint, it seems to me that simply acknowledging the fact that there are a lot of different people in the world and not everyone has the same needs would go a long way toward increasing human happiness.
That’s a tough sell, though. There are many people intent on hanging onto the notion that there is one “right” way to be. The notion that sexual orientation is innate is a powerful one because it plays to our sense of fairness; if it’s an unchangeable part of who we are, rather than an action that we do, then discriminating against people who are this way is a bit like discriminating against people based on the color of their skin or the place where they were born or some other factor outside their control.
I personally think that our genes influence our behavior a whole lot more than we’re comfortable acknowledging. Hell, I’ve written before that a mutation of a single nucleotide in a gene that codes for a receptor in our brains can radically alter our sexual behavior. It really doesn’t seem like a stretch to me that the interactions of our genes will create huge implications for who we love, how we love them, and what form our relationships take.
I doubt that there’s a “poly gene” or a “gay gene.” Unless you’re talking about peas, genetics is almost never that straightforward; almost everything you learned about genetics in elementary school is a grotesque oversimplification. I mean, hell, we have standard poodles, and the color of their fur is determined by some really complex interactions of no fewer than nine genes. Nine genes, just for their fur color!1 Attributing complex high-order sexual behavior to just one gene seems…silly.
But that doesn’t mean that sexual and relationship orientations don’t exist, nor that they are not determined by our biological makeup. It just means that there’s not one gene that flips the switch from straight to gay or from monogamous to polyamorous.
It’s more complex than that. And I wish people like Dan Savage would acknowledge that.
1 In case you’re wondering, the genes are referred to as C (the gene for producing melanin); S (pigmentation distribution; there are several mutant alleles, which produce different patterns of spotting, such as Irish spotting and piebald spotting); A (agouti) and E (extension), which affect the proportion of pigmentation (mutant alleles produce lighter or stronger pigmentation, and the interaction of these genes produces browns, reds, and yellows in dogs); B, which controls the size of melanin pigmentation granules (dogs with the mutant gene will be brown rather than black, unless the gene occurs in combination with mutant A and/or E alleles); D, the “dilute” gene, which changes the intensity of pigmentation (and in combination with A and E can result in white or cream colored dogs); R (Rufus), a gene which can cause expression of red and which works in combination with A and E can produce the range of reds from apricot to Irish Setter red); G, a gene that causes coat color to change over time and is responsible for “blue” coat color (which starts out black and fades as the dog matures); and a partially dominant gene called V, which controls coat color in a complex way that produces silvers and silver-greys but which can also lead to coat fading that resembles blues. All of these genes can occur in just about any combination and with dominant or recessive alleles; for instance, BBeevv results in an apricot poodle, unless there is a double recessive mutation of the R gene present, in which case the poodle will be red…if there isn’t a recessive D gene at play, which can turn that apricot or red into cream, but not the same cream that you get with BBeeVv, a combination that looks the same but produces different color combinations in the offspring…you get the idea.
To say that I am not a Dan Savage fan is a gross understatement. I loathe him and hate the fact that someone gave him such a large platform from which to spout his bullshit.
Yes, he does occasionally say something that I agree with. But when he says something wrong, he is really, damagingly, wrong. And that is not compensated for on the occasions when I kinda agree with him. Because there are other people who say the same sorts of things without the added wrongness that Savage says.
I would like nothing more for the kink, poly, and LGTBQ communities to stop supporting him until he acknowledges and apologizes for his blatant bigotry. Because, and this may shock some people, but being part of a minority group does not exempt one from being a bigot.
And Dan Savage is a bigot with a big fucking reach.
I know he’s not the only one, but it’s always so *perplexing* to me when a member of a minority who should know what it’s like to be discriminated against is such an enormous bigot.
This. I can’t stand the dude. He told a molested girl once that if she couldn’t have sex with the lights on, she shouldn’t be doing it. Which? Is true in 99% of situations. But not hers.:/
K.
::blinkblink:: I’m at a loss. Even if it was true in her case, that’s not how you handle that situation. And I’m known for my lack of tact, but damn.
To say that I am not a Dan Savage fan is a gross understatement. I loathe him and hate the fact that someone gave him such a large platform from which to spout his bullshit.
Yes, he does occasionally say something that I agree with. But when he says something wrong, he is really, damagingly, wrong. And that is not compensated for on the occasions when I kinda agree with him. Because there are other people who say the same sorts of things without the added wrongness that Savage says.
I would like nothing more for the kink, poly, and LGTBQ communities to stop supporting him until he acknowledges and apologizes for his blatant bigotry. Because, and this may shock some people, but being part of a minority group does not exempt one from being a bigot.
And Dan Savage is a bigot with a big fucking reach.
I know he’s not the only one, but it’s always so *perplexing* to me when a member of a minority who should know what it’s like to be discriminated against is such an enormous bigot.
Funny timing, he addressed this in a followup in his column today:
(comment he posted from a reader)
@fakedansavage says polyamory a “choice,” not an “identity.” Where have we heard that argument before? Meet the new bigots, same as the old.
@lilyldodge
(his reply)
If all people are naturally non-monogamous—a point I’ve made about 10 million times—then from my perspective, polyamory and monogamy are relationship models, not sexual orientations. (And if poly and monogamy are sexual orientations, Lily, wouldn’t going solo have to be considered one, too?) That was my point. Poly can be central to someone’s sexual self-conception, and it can be hugely important, but I don’t think it’s an orientation in the same way that gay, straight, or bisexual are orientations. People can and do, of course, identify as poly. But is poly something anyone can do, or something some people are? I come down on the “do” side. Lily clearly disagrees.
But as @GetItBigGurl said on Twitter, where Lily and I engaged about my comments in last week’s column, “Openly pondering difference between orientation vs. lifestyle isn’t bigotry, legislating against polyamory is.”
No one is legislating against polyamory here. Just thinkin’ about things.
Not supporting that POV, just noting he posted it today in response to similar criticisms.
Also, “No one is legislating against polyamory” is actually untrue — existing laws are being applied to poly people/families in a discriminatory way.
It happens all the time — local zoning requirements that don’t allow more than _x_ number of “unrelated adults” in a house/apartment, presumptions by Family Court judges that poly parents are somehow detrimental to their children’s well-being, poly people are being accused of “adultery” in states with fault grounds for divorce (and there is no legal protection for “but my former spouse agreed to it at the time!”) . . . it goes on.
Also, when you don’t have any legal protections as a class, it means that you can get fired/kicked out of your apartment by a landlord/etc. and have no recourse, because “being poly” is not protected in the same way as “being gay” is. It’s unequal treatment under the law.
So — while no one is *currently* legislating specifically against polyamory, poly people certainly get the short end of the stick when it comes to the law.
— A <3
Funny timing, he addressed this in a followup in his column today:
(comment he posted from a reader)
@fakedansavage says polyamory a “choice,” not an “identity.” Where have we heard that argument before? Meet the new bigots, same as the old.
@lilyldodge
(his reply)
If all people are naturally non-monogamous—a point I’ve made about 10 million times—then from my perspective, polyamory and monogamy are relationship models, not sexual orientations. (And if poly and monogamy are sexual orientations, Lily, wouldn’t going solo have to be considered one, too?) That was my point. Poly can be central to someone’s sexual self-conception, and it can be hugely important, but I don’t think it’s an orientation in the same way that gay, straight, or bisexual are orientations. People can and do, of course, identify as poly. But is poly something anyone can do, or something some people are? I come down on the “do” side. Lily clearly disagrees.
But as @GetItBigGurl said on Twitter, where Lily and I engaged about my comments in last week’s column, “Openly pondering difference between orientation vs. lifestyle isn’t bigotry, legislating against polyamory is.”
No one is legislating against polyamory here. Just thinkin’ about things.
Not supporting that POV, just noting he posted it today in response to similar criticisms.
I wish the person who had written in to his column hadn’t been such an obvious idiot (“a poly” makes me twitch), because it’s harder to fault his response, since he’s famously snarky to people who are (a) poor letter-writers, or (b) are exhibiting a strong case of missing-the-obvious. Or, in this case, (a) and (b) plus (c), which can be defined as “attempting to justify your case by using self-justifying, provably-imprecise language,” which practically *guarantees* a skewering — he does the same thing to married dudes who come up with creative excuses for why they just haaaaave to cheat.
With that said, I STILL wish to kick his narrow behind for being so unwilling to acknowledge polyamory as being a valid, workable *relationship* orientation, and this letter would have been a perfect example to say “Hey, poly isn’t a SEXUAL orientation, but it’s definitely a RELATIONSHIP orientation, at least for some people.”
And I say this as someone who considers herself to have a bisexual (although not pansexual) sexual orientation, and a polyamorous relationship orientation.
I think that you are right that there’s definitely a false binary issue going on — the fact that some people are neither strongly mono nor strongly poly gives some people the idea that *no one* is strongly inclined toward one end or the other, which I think is ridiculous — just like the “all people are bisexual” theory, which ignores that there are very, VERY homo/heterosexual people who are not at ALL inclined towards attraction to the gender of their non-preference.
I generally try to say that there are a number of sliders (homosexual/heterosexual, mono/poly, asexual/hypersexual — although that last one is arguable, because there is a difference between levels of libido and levels of romantic and sexual *attraction* . . . because there are some asexual people who define it as a sexual orientation, and others who will define it as a lack of orientation OR a lack of libido), and that you can graph where an individual falls on these sliders — arse, I’m tired and it’s been ages since I took any math classes, so I am having trouble expressing what the graph would look like, other than ‘multiple orthogonal axes.’
I see that column as a missed opportunity, and it’s frustrating to see Dan’s ongoing blind spot (although he’s at least less actively HOSTILE to poly people/relationships than he used to be) about polyamory causing him to continue to misinform his readers — although I admit that his is an opinion/advice column, I’d still like to see him give GOOD advice on this subject.
(In regards to his ‘monogamish’ status, what he’s stated in the past is that most people need a little sexual variety, but that it’s healthy for people in a loving monogamous relationship to find mutually-agreeable ways in which to engage in those activities — which, reading between the lines, means “emotional monogamy with some degree of agreed-upon sexual non-exclusivity.” I think that part of the reason why he’s been so anti-poly in the past is that *Dan himself is romantically/emotionally/relationally monogamous*, and he can’t understand why some of us want anything OTHER than the occasional piece of strange tail on the side with our partner’s approval/participation. In the past, he’s seemed baffled and hostile towards polyamorous *relationships*, but he has no problem with open relationships, swinging, etc. It’s a weird blind spot, but it’s a consistent one!)
— A <3
P.S. I LOVED the bit about poodle genetics. Fascinating stuff, thank you!!
…it’s been ages since I took any math classes, so I am having trouble expressing what the graph would look like, other than ‘multiple orthogonal axes.’
Hm. Off the top of my head, I’d say a ill-defined hyperdimensional space for orientation, with a non-linear transform onto another hyperspace called “behavior”. Oh, and the axes are not metric. There are also hardly any parameters under which the transformation is invariant. What a mess. I think a heuristic locally maximal solution is in order, rather than holding out hope for a provable global optimum.
People are tricky. I’m’a just try to be nice.
I wish the person who had written in to his column hadn’t been such an obvious idiot (“a poly” makes me twitch), because it’s harder to fault his response, since he’s famously snarky to people who are (a) poor letter-writers, or (b) are exhibiting a strong case of missing-the-obvious. Or, in this case, (a) and (b) plus (c), which can be defined as “attempting to justify your case by using self-justifying, provably-imprecise language,” which practically *guarantees* a skewering — he does the same thing to married dudes who come up with creative excuses for why they just haaaaave to cheat.
With that said, I STILL wish to kick his narrow behind for being so unwilling to acknowledge polyamory as being a valid, workable *relationship* orientation, and this letter would have been a perfect example to say “Hey, poly isn’t a SEXUAL orientation, but it’s definitely a RELATIONSHIP orientation, at least for some people.”
And I say this as someone who considers herself to have a bisexual (although not pansexual) sexual orientation, and a polyamorous relationship orientation.
I think that you are right that there’s definitely a false binary issue going on — the fact that some people are neither strongly mono nor strongly poly gives some people the idea that *no one* is strongly inclined toward one end or the other, which I think is ridiculous — just like the “all people are bisexual” theory, which ignores that there are very, VERY homo/heterosexual people who are not at ALL inclined towards attraction to the gender of their non-preference.
I generally try to say that there are a number of sliders (homosexual/heterosexual, mono/poly, asexual/hypersexual — although that last one is arguable, because there is a difference between levels of libido and levels of romantic and sexual *attraction* . . . because there are some asexual people who define it as a sexual orientation, and others who will define it as a lack of orientation OR a lack of libido), and that you can graph where an individual falls on these sliders — arse, I’m tired and it’s been ages since I took any math classes, so I am having trouble expressing what the graph would look like, other than ‘multiple orthogonal axes.’
I see that column as a missed opportunity, and it’s frustrating to see Dan’s ongoing blind spot (although he’s at least less actively HOSTILE to poly people/relationships than he used to be) about polyamory causing him to continue to misinform his readers — although I admit that his is an opinion/advice column, I’d still like to see him give GOOD advice on this subject.
(In regards to his ‘monogamish’ status, what he’s stated in the past is that most people need a little sexual variety, but that it’s healthy for people in a loving monogamous relationship to find mutually-agreeable ways in which to engage in those activities — which, reading between the lines, means “emotional monogamy with some degree of agreed-upon sexual non-exclusivity.” I think that part of the reason why he’s been so anti-poly in the past is that *Dan himself is romantically/emotionally/relationally monogamous*, and he can’t understand why some of us want anything OTHER than the occasional piece of strange tail on the side with our partner’s approval/participation. In the past, he’s seemed baffled and hostile towards polyamorous *relationships*, but he has no problem with open relationships, swinging, etc. It’s a weird blind spot, but it’s a consistent one!)
— A <3
P.S. I LOVED the bit about poodle genetics. Fascinating stuff, thank you!!
Thanks for all your insights
I would like to add, if you don’t mind, that I really appreciate all the work that you have put into this assessment. I sort-of started on this page and worked my way backwards to the time when you first acquired your HTC, and at the time that I had last posted, I had no idea that you had put so much time and effort into this.
On to the 2000 hour rule.
You may want to adjust it a bit, adding variety as well as time. I think if you had more experience with other android phones that you would have drawn different conclusions, and more than likely solved some to the problems. Ideally, buying a universal phone and installing exactly the apps you want is my idea of a Smart-Phone. Perhaps in the future you’ll find the time to build a phone of your very own and discover that comparing a 2009 HTC to a 2012 Apple may not be a fair assessment after all. Anyway, thanks for the interesting read. °¿°
Thanks for all your insights
I would like to add, if you don’t mind, that I really appreciate all the work that you have put into this assessment. I sort-of started on this page and worked my way backwards to the time when you first acquired your HTC, and at the time that I had last posted, I had no idea that you had put so much time and effort into this.
On to the 2000 hour rule.
You may want to adjust it a bit, adding variety as well as time. I think if you had more experience with other android phones that you would have drawn different conclusions, and more than likely solved some to the problems. Ideally, buying a universal phone and installing exactly the apps you want is my idea of a Smart-Phone. Perhaps in the future you’ll find the time to build a phone of your very own and discover that comparing a 2009 HTC to a 2012 Apple may not be a fair assessment after all. Anyway, thanks for the interesting read. °¿°
Grangh.
I think it of as a fundamental part of growing up – realising that other people do not share my preference. When I was tiny I had NO IDEA that not everyone loved carrots! But I grew out of that. Now I know that there is a huge variety of food preferences. The same is true in every walk of life! People like different things, some of them like a certain narrow thing and nothing else, others change between different things depending on the weather.
Come to think of it I know some supposedly grown up people who can’t cope with people’s differing food needs…
I guess the thing is that people’s varied preferences make them more or less compatible with me as friends and lovers; some people seem determined to act as if all people are the same, which I guess allows them to assume that all people are similarly compatible with them… which would be nice, but it’s JUST NOT TRUE.
Grangh.
I think it of as a fundamental part of growing up – realising that other people do not share my preference. When I was tiny I had NO IDEA that not everyone loved carrots! But I grew out of that. Now I know that there is a huge variety of food preferences. The same is true in every walk of life! People like different things, some of them like a certain narrow thing and nothing else, others change between different things depending on the weather.
Come to think of it I know some supposedly grown up people who can’t cope with people’s differing food needs…
I guess the thing is that people’s varied preferences make them more or less compatible with me as friends and lovers; some people seem determined to act as if all people are the same, which I guess allows them to assume that all people are similarly compatible with them… which would be nice, but it’s JUST NOT TRUE.
So I’m guessing he thinks people like me – poly people in monogamous relationships – are highly delusional. Well, fuck that.
So I’m guessing he thinks people like me – poly people in monogamous relationships – are highly delusional. Well, fuck that.
Savage has decent shtick as an amusing (at times) and cantankerous (always) sex/dating columnist and certainly does as advertised. In that regard, more power to him. However it’s also fair to say that Dan Savage is not exactly a nice or overly pleasant human being. The chip on his shoulder is pretty big and all of that negates anything positive he might say. Anti-gay activists love him because he does a lot of their work for them.
Savage has decent shtick as an amusing (at times) and cantankerous (always) sex/dating columnist and certainly does as advertised. In that regard, more power to him. However it’s also fair to say that Dan Savage is not exactly a nice or overly pleasant human being. The chip on his shoulder is pretty big and all of that negates anything positive he might say. Anti-gay activists love him because he does a lot of their work for them.
…it’s been ages since I took any math classes, so I am having trouble expressing what the graph would look like, other than ‘multiple orthogonal axes.’
Hm. Off the top of my head, I’d say a ill-defined hyperdimensional space for orientation, with a non-linear transform onto another hyperspace called “behavior”. Oh, and the axes are not metric. There are also hardly any parameters under which the transformation is invariant. What a mess. I think a heuristic locally maximal solution is in order, rather than holding out hope for a provable global optimum.
People are tricky. I’m’a just try to be nice.
I’m with you on this! I try to like Dan Savage … I think the “It gets better” campaign was a very positive thing and I have to thank him for redefining the word santorum. That said, he’s an arrogant prick, a hypocrite, and a huge example of the “I’ve got mine, so fuck you” attitude seen in many members of oppressed groups when dealing with other groups facing similar situations.
Yes.
I’m with you on this! I try to like Dan Savage … I think the “It gets better” campaign was a very positive thing and I have to thank him for redefining the word santorum. That said, he’s an arrogant prick, a hypocrite, and a huge example of the “I’ve got mine, so fuck you” attitude seen in many members of oppressed groups when dealing with other groups facing similar situations.
This is good. It seems like everyone, no matter how supposedly liberal or forward thinking, wants to discriminate against SOMEONE. Makes you wonder who is targeted by your own inborn discriminations..
Unless, you know, you’re self-critical and actually try to be a decent human being. It’s not that hard; he could learn to do it if he wasn’t busy being so damn self-important.
^^^Co-signed!
This is good. It seems like everyone, no matter how supposedly liberal or forward thinking, wants to discriminate against SOMEONE. Makes you wonder who is targeted by your own inborn discriminations..
This. I can’t stand the dude. He told a molested girl once that if she couldn’t have sex with the lights on, she shouldn’t be doing it. Which? Is true in 99% of situations. But not hers.:/
K.
I think there’s some confusion arising from the difference in the terms “nonmonogamous” and “polyamorous.”
While I agree there’s a spectrum of “natural” inclinations (and whether such inclinations are inborn or socialized probably doesn’t matter much in practice) from completely monogamous to completely nonmonogamous, if you look at the most widely accepted definitions of the word “polyamory,” it’s pretty clear that they’re all describing a specific set of chosen behaviours. Someone who could never be happy in a monogamous relationship could express their inclination (or orientation, if you prefer) toward nonmonogamy in a number of ways: they could cheat or be serially monogamous, for example. I don’t think you can say someone is genuinely polyamorous if they don’t include some sort of ethics in their *behaviour,* and ethics absolutely are a choice. And I suspect most people who identify as polyamorous would count those ethics as a pretty important part of that identity, and bristle at the idea that someone who didn’t have any might choose to also call themselves polyamorous.
If that’s the case–if being polyamorous requires both an inclination/desire/need/orientation/whatever for having multiple relationships, and a commitment to conducting those relationships according to certain principles, that may make polyamory and *identity* but certainly not an *orientation*.
It seems like this comes down to sloppy language use on both Savage’s part and ours. While he confused matters by equating “identity” with “orientation” in his response (and should know better), we also muddy the waters when we equate the scale of variation from those who are disposed to be completely monogamous to completely nonmonogamy with some kind of scale between monogamy and polyamory.
It seems like this comes down to sloppy language use on both Savage’s part and ours. While he confused matters by equating “identity” with “orientation” in his response (and should know better), we also muddy the waters when we equate the scale of variation from those who are disposed to be completely monogamous to completely nonmonogamy with some kind of scale between monogamy and polyamory.
THIS is what I think this whole kerfuffle on Dan’s column boils down to – muddy language, and the confusion between the concepts of “orienation” and “self-identity”.
>>>we also muddy the waters when we equate the scale of variation from those who are disposed to be completely monogamous to completely nonmonogamy with some kind of scale between monogamy and polyamory.
Fair, and very true!
I think that part of the problem is that “monogamous” kind of works both ways (it’s used as an opposite term to “polyamorous”, AND as an opposite term to “nonmonogamous”), and thus it’s really easy to get sloppy with the terminology.
Maybe the scale should go from something like “one-lifetime-partner monogamy”, through serial monogamy, all the way to “complete nonmonogamy”, without mentioning polyamory.
There maybe needs to be a separate *relationship ethics* continuum that includes DADT, cheating, swinging, “open relationships”, polyamory, other forms of ethical nonmonogamy . . . but it would be hard to have each of the points have a neutral value, and what order to put them in would also be problematic, given that I don’t think that swinging is less *ethical* than polyamory (although it’s not my cuppa), but any scale that has ‘cheating’ in it is going to be a little loaded, because people whose sexual behaviors are grouped closest to cheating are going to be unhappy.
Maybe just a relationship STYLE slider? Or a radio button? 😉
— A <3
meep, I really want to correct this typo, but can’t since people have already responded:
“the scale of variation from those who are disposed to be completely monogamous to completely nonmonogamy”
should be
“the scale of variation from those who are disposed to be completely monogamous to completely nonmonogamOUS” (of course).
I think there’s some confusion arising from the difference in the terms “nonmonogamous” and “polyamorous.”
While I agree there’s a spectrum of “natural” inclinations (and whether such inclinations are inborn or socialized probably doesn’t matter much in practice) from completely monogamous to completely nonmonogamous, if you look at the most widely accepted definitions of the word “polyamory,” it’s pretty clear that they’re all describing a specific set of chosen behaviours. Someone who could never be happy in a monogamous relationship could express their inclination (or orientation, if you prefer) toward nonmonogamy in a number of ways: they could cheat or be serially monogamous, for example. I don’t think you can say someone is genuinely polyamorous if they don’t include some sort of ethics in their *behaviour,* and ethics absolutely are a choice. And I suspect most people who identify as polyamorous would count those ethics as a pretty important part of that identity, and bristle at the idea that someone who didn’t have any might choose to also call themselves polyamorous.
If that’s the case–if being polyamorous requires both an inclination/desire/need/orientation/whatever for having multiple relationships, and a commitment to conducting those relationships according to certain principles, that may make polyamory and *identity* but certainly not an *orientation*.
It seems like this comes down to sloppy language use on both Savage’s part and ours. While he confused matters by equating “identity” with “orientation” in his response (and should know better), we also muddy the waters when we equate the scale of variation from those who are disposed to be completely monogamous to completely nonmonogamy with some kind of scale between monogamy and polyamory.
::blinkblink:: I’m at a loss. Even if it was true in her case, that’s not how you handle that situation. And I’m known for my lack of tact, but damn.
Yes.
Unless, you know, you’re self-critical and actually try to be a decent human being. It’s not that hard; he could learn to do it if he wasn’t busy being so damn self-important.
appetites
You need a bad guy to distinguish the good guys. In my lifetime the bad guys have changed from, mafia’s to gangs, to national enemies, to blacks, to immigrants, to bikers, or aliens from another planet. And since we’re now politically correct we invent our bad guys. The vampire, the undead, and it goes on.
Eliminate all the “I am’s” and your left with appetites. I am hungry for= Oh No, you can’t seriously be considering eating that?
What do you want when your senses do not stimulate you? If you were blind, deaf and had no sense of smell, could you fall in love with the hands that massaged you no matter what gender they were attached too? Could you be attracted to the firm hand and well as the light touch?
Biodiversity is a fact of life…people need to live with it.
http://eowilsonfoundation.org
appetites
You need a bad guy to distinguish the good guys. In my lifetime the bad guys have changed from, mafia’s to gangs, to national enemies, to blacks, to immigrants, to bikers, or aliens from another planet. And since we’re now politically correct we invent our bad guys. The vampire, the undead, and it goes on.
Eliminate all the “I am’s” and your left with appetites. I am hungry for= Oh No, you can’t seriously be considering eating that?
What do you want when your senses do not stimulate you? If you were blind, deaf and had no sense of smell, could you fall in love with the hands that massaged you no matter what gender they were attached too? Could you be attracted to the firm hand and well as the light touch?
Biodiversity is a fact of life…people need to live with it.
http://eowilsonfoundation.org
I’ve never liked him and continue to be baffled by all the love sex- positive liberals give him. All I see is a sexist, trans-phobic advice columnist.
I’ve never liked him and continue to be baffled by all the love sex- positive liberals give him. All I see is a sexist, trans-phobic advice columnist.
There is a “share” button on Livejournal for you to post this post in your LJ. Or you could link to the whole post on your LJ, Tumblr, or Facebook. I was directed here via a Facebook Share, and am impressed enough by the points (some angry, but many, especially Ashbet’s, well-thought-out) that I’ll likely share the link and discuss it in my own LJ.
There is a “share” button on Livejournal for you to post this post in your LJ. Or you could link to the whole post on your LJ, Tumblr, or Facebook. I was directed here via a Facebook Share, and am impressed enough by the points (some angry, but many, especially Ashbet’s, well-thought-out) that I’ll likely share the link and discuss it in my own LJ.
It seems like this comes down to sloppy language use on both Savage’s part and ours. While he confused matters by equating “identity” with “orientation” in his response (and should know better), we also muddy the waters when we equate the scale of variation from those who are disposed to be completely monogamous to completely nonmonogamy with some kind of scale between monogamy and polyamory.
THIS is what I think this whole kerfuffle on Dan’s column boils down to – muddy language, and the confusion between the concepts of “orienation” and “self-identity”.
>>>we also muddy the waters when we equate the scale of variation from those who are disposed to be completely monogamous to completely nonmonogamy with some kind of scale between monogamy and polyamory.
Fair, and very true!
I think that part of the problem is that “monogamous” kind of works both ways (it’s used as an opposite term to “polyamorous”, AND as an opposite term to “nonmonogamous”), and thus it’s really easy to get sloppy with the terminology.
Maybe the scale should go from something like “one-lifetime-partner monogamy”, through serial monogamy, all the way to “complete nonmonogamy”, without mentioning polyamory.
There maybe needs to be a separate *relationship ethics* continuum that includes DADT, cheating, swinging, “open relationships”, polyamory, other forms of ethical nonmonogamy . . . but it would be hard to have each of the points have a neutral value, and what order to put them in would also be problematic, given that I don’t think that swinging is less *ethical* than polyamory (although it’s not my cuppa), but any scale that has ‘cheating’ in it is going to be a little loaded, because people whose sexual behaviors are grouped closest to cheating are going to be unhappy.
Maybe just a relationship STYLE slider? Or a radio button? 😉
— A <3
Agreed!! I realized that I had a poly *relationship* orientation back in high school (and was very frustrated that despite the fact that a friend of mine and I were perfectly happy to share the friends-with-benefits services of a mutual friend, everyone around us had to turn it into DRAMAAAAHHHH and it all fell apart.)
Again, in high school, one of my best friends and I used to go out on triple-dates with her then-boyfriend, and we’d giggle a lot about confusing people at theaters/etc. by walking hand-in-hand and each giving him a kiss on the cheek when we’d get up to go get snacks . . . and I remember wishing at the time that it was real, and that it was something that I *could* have.
I loved the idea of being part of a triad (note: my tastes have expanded to include other poly configurations since then, but ‘triad’/’vee’ were my first inclinations), and I was still working through the realization that I was bisexual — it took a while, I grew up in Minnesota in the 80’s, I thought you HAD to be either straight or gay, and since I liked men, I obviously wasn’t A LESBIAN (which was a Thing, at the time), so I was mostly just confused and wistful.
And I thought there was something wrong with me, because everyone was SUPPOSED to be looking for their One True Love, and while I was genuinely in love with someone throughout most of high school, I was also sexually *and romantically* attracted to someone else, and I kind of processed it as one of the relationships as being my ‘good’ side (pure, romantic love) and the other was my ‘bad’ side (dark, a little self-destructive, wantonly sexual.)
I kind of want to go back and give my 15-year-old self a hug and explain some shit — and I’m glad that I’ve raised my daughter (now 20) to communicate with partners/prospective partners, to be honest and forthright about her wants and needs, and to consider all possibilities of relationship structures. She’s in a monogamous long-distance relationship of 5 years’ duration, because that’s what works for her and her Boy . . . but I love that they *talked* about whether monogamy was right for them, and considered all of their options before making the choice that has made them happy 🙂
So, yeah — I definitely would class myself as someone who has a fairly strong polyamorous romantic/relationship orientation, because I’ve been true to type ever since I started having/wanting relationships, and I’ve tried monogamy several times, but it just doesn’t work for me.
And I consider myself poly whether or not I have any relationships with others at any given time — I spent 12 years with one partner, the first 4 of which could have been mistaken for “monogamous” because I wasn’t dating anyone else at the time, but I was very clear during those 4 years that I was still poly, I just didn’t currently have other relationships. It didn’t change my identification or my *intentions* or my *desires*, I just hadn’t met anyone else who I *wanted* to date!
— A <3
Agreed!! I realized that I had a poly *relationship* orientation back in high school (and was very frustrated that despite the fact that a friend of mine and I were perfectly happy to share the friends-with-benefits services of a mutual friend, everyone around us had to turn it into DRAMAAAAHHHH and it all fell apart.)
Again, in high school, one of my best friends and I used to go out on triple-dates with her then-boyfriend, and we’d giggle a lot about confusing people at theaters/etc. by walking hand-in-hand and each giving him a kiss on the cheek when we’d get up to go get snacks . . . and I remember wishing at the time that it was real, and that it was something that I *could* have.
I loved the idea of being part of a triad (note: my tastes have expanded to include other poly configurations since then, but ‘triad’/’vee’ were my first inclinations), and I was still working through the realization that I was bisexual — it took a while, I grew up in Minnesota in the 80’s, I thought you HAD to be either straight or gay, and since I liked men, I obviously wasn’t A LESBIAN (which was a Thing, at the time), so I was mostly just confused and wistful.
And I thought there was something wrong with me, because everyone was SUPPOSED to be looking for their One True Love, and while I was genuinely in love with someone throughout most of high school, I was also sexually *and romantically* attracted to someone else, and I kind of processed it as one of the relationships as being my ‘good’ side (pure, romantic love) and the other was my ‘bad’ side (dark, a little self-destructive, wantonly sexual.)
I kind of want to go back and give my 15-year-old self a hug and explain some shit — and I’m glad that I’ve raised my daughter (now 20) to communicate with partners/prospective partners, to be honest and forthright about her wants and needs, and to consider all possibilities of relationship structures. She’s in a monogamous long-distance relationship of 5 years’ duration, because that’s what works for her and her Boy . . . but I love that they *talked* about whether monogamy was right for them, and considered all of their options before making the choice that has made them happy 🙂
So, yeah — I definitely would class myself as someone who has a fairly strong polyamorous romantic/relationship orientation, because I’ve been true to type ever since I started having/wanting relationships, and I’ve tried monogamy several times, but it just doesn’t work for me.
And I consider myself poly whether or not I have any relationships with others at any given time — I spent 12 years with one partner, the first 4 of which could have been mistaken for “monogamous” because I wasn’t dating anyone else at the time, but I was very clear during those 4 years that I was still poly, I just didn’t currently have other relationships. It didn’t change my identification or my *intentions* or my *desires*, I just hadn’t met anyone else who I *wanted* to date!
— A <3
I’m thinking a lot of this argument would clarify if the Original Writer, Dan, and the poly community could all translate what has been said into what they actually mean.
This is my proposed translation of what they were all TRYING to say:
OP: “I self-identify as a born non-monogamist and would like to know if I can be happy in a monogamous relationship, or if my innate nature will cause problems.”
Dan: “Monogamy/non-monagamy is not the same as being gay or straight.
The Poly Community: How dare you say that being poly cannot be part of our self-identity!
If we were not all talking apples/pears/grapes, and using terms that mean different things to different people, then at least we could have an intelligent dialogue over
1. People’s rights to self-identity and
2. Whether non-monogamous preferences are learned or innate; and
3. Should we still have the right to choose things for our self-identity, including sexual orientation AND relationship structural preferences, regardless of whether they are learned or innate preferences?
And as for (3), I absolutely think that people have a right to self-determination of their declared identity, and to use concepts which *they* feel are accurate to their self-identity. I don’t think it should be outwardly imposed.
I don’t necessarily think innate preferences should be privileged over learned preferences, although I understand that they are that way, in part, because people who are outside the cis/hetero/mono norm feel the need to justify themselves (often because they are/have been attacked for their declared identity), and “It’s not my fault, I’ve been this way since birth!” is a justification that seems to be more societally accepted than “This is what I like/enjoy, this is what makes me happy, this is my desire.”
(I’m not saying that a lot of things AREN’T innate, but I think that’s a big reason why there are so many arguments about which traits/preferences/desires are innate vs. learned, because innate traits are considered to be immutable. It’s why, I think, LGBT rights started to advance in recent years, because of the “Born This Way” (no, not Lady Gaga) concept sinking in to mainstream society.
Americans tend to think it’s “unfair” to discriminate because of innate traits that people “can’t help/can’t change,” like race — and it’s why the LGBT rights movement co-opted a lot of the language of the African-American civil rights movement.
Now, a lot of Americans believe that gay people are born gay, and the opposition saying that “Gay is something you DO, not something you ARE” is gradually becoming a smaller part of the national discourse. (Would love it to go away entirely someday, but I also want a pony, a winning Lotto ticket, and a new spine.)
The transgender rights movement is making slower headway on that point, in part because, at this time, most Americans believe that gender is innate. It’s why so many transgender people have made a point of saying that they felt born in the “wrong body” or that they “always felt different” or “always felt like they were REALLY male/female despite their birth gender.”
(I am not invalidating ANY of these statements — I’m just saying that in a society that values innate traits over learned ones, it can be crucial for civil rights/legislative issues/healthcare reasons to create a born-this-way/innate-trait perception regarding gender orientation.)
That, I think, is why the arguments about whether or not polyamory is a “legitimate orientation,” sexual or relationship-wise, is that we’ve had it drilled into us that innate traits are privileged over learned traits or preferences, and that if we want to avoid discrimination (legal/social/family), we feel the need to establish polyamory/the desire for multiple partners or relationships as being an innate trait, for at least some subset of poly people.
— A <3
I’m thinking a lot of this argument would clarify if the Original Writer, Dan, and the poly community could all translate what has been said into what they actually mean.
This is my proposed translation of what they were all TRYING to say:
OP: “I self-identify as a born non-monogamist and would like to know if I can be happy in a monogamous relationship, or if my innate nature will cause problems.”
Dan: “Monogamy/non-monagamy is not the same as being gay or straight.
The Poly Community: How dare you say that being poly cannot be part of our self-identity!
If we were not all talking apples/pears/grapes, and using terms that mean different things to different people, then at least we could have an intelligent dialogue over
1. People’s rights to self-identity and
2. Whether non-monogamous preferences are learned or innate; and
3. Should we still have the right to choose things for our self-identity, including sexual orientation AND relationship structural preferences, regardless of whether they are learned or innate preferences?
I posted the results of my thinking it through, based on your comment, below. Thanks! Turns out I have pretty strong opinions about listening to what people mean, not what they say. 🙂
I posted the results of my thinking it through, based on your comment, below. Thanks! Turns out I have pretty strong opinions about listening to what people mean, not what they say. 🙂
And as for (3), I absolutely think that people have a right to self-determination of their declared identity, and to use concepts which *they* feel are accurate to their self-identity. I don’t think it should be outwardly imposed.
I don’t necessarily think innate preferences should be privileged over learned preferences, although I understand that they are that way, in part, because people who are outside the cis/hetero/mono norm feel the need to justify themselves (often because they are/have been attacked for their declared identity), and “It’s not my fault, I’ve been this way since birth!” is a justification that seems to be more societally accepted than “This is what I like/enjoy, this is what makes me happy, this is my desire.”
(I’m not saying that a lot of things AREN’T innate, but I think that’s a big reason why there are so many arguments about which traits/preferences/desires are innate vs. learned, because innate traits are considered to be immutable. It’s why, I think, LGBT rights started to advance in recent years, because of the “Born This Way” (no, not Lady Gaga) concept sinking in to mainstream society.
Americans tend to think it’s “unfair” to discriminate because of innate traits that people “can’t help/can’t change,” like race — and it’s why the LGBT rights movement co-opted a lot of the language of the African-American civil rights movement.
Now, a lot of Americans believe that gay people are born gay, and the opposition saying that “Gay is something you DO, not something you ARE” is gradually becoming a smaller part of the national discourse. (Would love it to go away entirely someday, but I also want a pony, a winning Lotto ticket, and a new spine.)
The transgender rights movement is making slower headway on that point, in part because, at this time, most Americans believe that gender is innate. It’s why so many transgender people have made a point of saying that they felt born in the “wrong body” or that they “always felt different” or “always felt like they were REALLY male/female despite their birth gender.”
(I am not invalidating ANY of these statements — I’m just saying that in a society that values innate traits over learned ones, it can be crucial for civil rights/legislative issues/healthcare reasons to create a born-this-way/innate-trait perception regarding gender orientation.)
That, I think, is why the arguments about whether or not polyamory is a “legitimate orientation,” sexual or relationship-wise, is that we’ve had it drilled into us that innate traits are privileged over learned traits or preferences, and that if we want to avoid discrimination (legal/social/family), we feel the need to establish polyamory/the desire for multiple partners or relationships as being an innate trait, for at least some subset of poly people.
— A <3
meep, I really want to correct this typo, but can’t since people have already responded:
“the scale of variation from those who are disposed to be completely monogamous to completely nonmonogamy”
should be
“the scale of variation from those who are disposed to be completely monogamous to completely nonmonogamOUS” (of course).
Also, “No one is legislating against polyamory” is actually untrue — existing laws are being applied to poly people/families in a discriminatory way.
It happens all the time — local zoning requirements that don’t allow more than _x_ number of “unrelated adults” in a house/apartment, presumptions by Family Court judges that poly parents are somehow detrimental to their children’s well-being, poly people are being accused of “adultery” in states with fault grounds for divorce (and there is no legal protection for “but my former spouse agreed to it at the time!”) . . . it goes on.
Also, when you don’t have any legal protections as a class, it means that you can get fired/kicked out of your apartment by a landlord/etc. and have no recourse, because “being poly” is not protected in the same way as “being gay” is. It’s unequal treatment under the law.
So — while no one is *currently* legislating specifically against polyamory, poly people certainly get the short end of the stick when it comes to the law.
— A <3
Hahaha – by the time you responded to this, I’d re-written my little translation four times in my own journal.
I think the ACTUAL discussion here, the only point the poly community and Dan are disagreeing on, is whether a person’s position on the non/monogamy spectrum is chosen or innate (or can it be either). All the discussion of self-identity etc. is just ramping up the strong emotions and buttons of each self-interest group.
This was my most recent attempt at translation, having re-read the original articles.
OP: “I self-identify as a born non-monogamist who has a relationship with a currently self-identified monogamist. Please use your respected position as a sex columnist to help me manipulate my partner into opening our relationship, and/or provide justification and excuses for when I cheat.
Dan: “You annoy me and you need a smackdown for your non-adherence to the albeit recent modern linguistic conventions of the non-monogamous and sexual-advocacy communities. Also, it is my belief at this time that non-monogamous inclinations are chosen, not innate. I’m not going to provide the excuse for your cheating ass.”
The Poly Community: How dare you say that being poly cannot be part of our self-identity! We have a right to identify as poly!!! *list of examples* Also – we feel we have as much right to opinions about the chosen/innate nature of non-monogamy, as queer folk have to opinions on the chosen/innate nature of sexual orientation.
I think you’ve nailed it ;D
<3!
I suppose the sad thing is really how much time and thought I put into my need to nail it. LOL.
Dan: “You annoy me and you need a smackdown for your non-adherence to the albeit recent modern linguistic conventions of the non-monogamous and sexual-advocacy communities. Also, it is my belief at this time that non-monogamous inclinations are chosen, not innate. I’m not going to provide the excuse for your cheating ass.”
I think it might be closer, given his followup, to say “You annoy me and you need a smackdown for your non-adherence to the albeit recent modern linguistic conventions of the non-monogamous and sexual-advocacy communities. Also, it is my belief at this time that all people are basically non-monogamous. I’m not going to provide the excuse for your cheating ass.”
Which is a bit that rankles me, particularly in light of the fact that you can’t really say “all people have two legs.”
There are all sorts of evolutionary psychology arguments in favor of the notion that all people are non-monogamous, but I don’t find any of them compelling. I do find the argument that human beings did not evolve to be naturally monogamous compelling, but that’s a different argument altogether. (To understand why, consider the difference between “human beings, like other mammals, evolved with two distinct biological sexes that both act together for procreation” and “all people are heterosexual.” The fact that we may have evolved mating strategies that include gobs of non-monogamy doesn’t mean that every individual is “naturally” non-monogamous, and the fact that we evolved two distinct biological sexes doesn’t mean each individual fits one of those two sexes–there are many people born intersexed, for example–nor that all people are heterosexual.)
I really don’t think it’s a matter of semantics. Dan’s followup comment about not being bigoted because he isn’t proposing laws against polyamory explains why: The notion that sexual identity is an inherent, immutable, inborn trait is a deeply political idea. We live in a culture that is wedded, for many reasons, to the notion that denying rights to someone on the basis of an inborn trait is unfair.
The idea that polyamory might be an inborn trait is something that many people who campaign for gay and lesbian rights find unsettling. This isn’t just Dan Savage; I’ve encountered quite a few LGBTQ activists who are resentful of it. I’ve heard some people argue that campaigning for poly rights plays into the hands of homophobes who use “what’s next, polygamy?”-style arguments against gay marriage and I’ve heard other folks complain that poly folks are all promiscuous and they don’t want to play into the hands of folks who believe that gays are also promiscuous.
So while I agree there is muddy language at work here–for instance, polyamory is a particular expression of non-monogamy, so it makes little sense to talk about “monogamy or polyamory” rather than “monogamy or non-monogamy”–I also think there’s a political motivation at work, too.
I agree with many of your numerous points here.
I particularly like your analogy about evolving two genders to procreate not equaling “everyone is heterosexual”, in the way that not everyone is naturally non-monogamous.
I think with romantic relationships there is a huge emotional element. I remember in a counseling session in uni, I expressed guilt at any feelings of jealousy or posessiveness that I had in relationships – I felt those emotions were conditioned into me. They psychologist referred to studies of infants done where the infants manifested possessiveness, territorialness, and jealousy, leading the studies to conclude these were innate tendencies, not conditioned. Which to me says that some people are naturally emotionally pre-disposed to monogamous relationships, some people don’t have a jealous bone in their body and are, possibly, the evolutionary non-monogamists that Dan so likes to generalize about, and others, like me, experience jealousy but have ethical and logical reasons to reject possessiveness as a lifestyle, and practice non-monogamy as an ethical choice.
Not being a mono-sexual, I have no way of knowing if mono-sexuality is a born trait. I have long thought that the claims that it was, are a political strategy that may backfire in the end. There is the possibility that homosexuality could be considered a birth defect, which horrifies me to no end, or a genetic trait that is somehow “less” than being born straight, something to be pitied, and requiring legal allowances for it. I may be entirely wrong – probably it IS a born trait, but I don’t see it as any different than traits of blonde hair or brown.
As a political strategy, I would rather win gay rights NOT as a case of “I can’t help it, I was born this way, so give me my rights”, but rather a case of, “My choice of partner causes no harm to anyone, so please give each of us the right to choose a partner of either gender as our heart leads.” Whether mono-sexuality is a born trait, a learned or conditioned trait, a matter of logic, or preference, or chemistry – none of that should matter for the political and legal right to choose a partner (or partners). The “born this way” may be working as a political strategy, but I cringe at the implication of “I can’t help it, pity me” that has no place in our sexual choices.
Hahaha – by the time you responded to this, I’d re-written my little translation four times in my own journal.
I think the ACTUAL discussion here, the only point the poly community and Dan are disagreeing on, is whether a person’s position on the non/monogamy spectrum is chosen or innate (or can it be either). All the discussion of self-identity etc. is just ramping up the strong emotions and buttons of each self-interest group.
This was my most recent attempt at translation, having re-read the original articles.
OP: “I self-identify as a born non-monogamist who has a relationship with a currently self-identified monogamist. Please use your respected position as a sex columnist to help me manipulate my partner into opening our relationship, and/or provide justification and excuses for when I cheat.
Dan: “You annoy me and you need a smackdown for your non-adherence to the albeit recent modern linguistic conventions of the non-monogamous and sexual-advocacy communities. Also, it is my belief at this time that non-monogamous inclinations are chosen, not innate. I’m not going to provide the excuse for your cheating ass.”
The Poly Community: How dare you say that being poly cannot be part of our self-identity! We have a right to identify as poly!!! *list of examples* Also – we feel we have as much right to opinions about the chosen/innate nature of non-monogamy, as queer folk have to opinions on the chosen/innate nature of sexual orientation.
I think you’ve nailed it ;D
<3!
I suppose the sad thing is really how much time and thought I put into my need to nail it. LOL.
^^^Co-signed!
Yep — what said. All of my partners met me when I already had another partner/s, and I was very clear about it from the start. People who don’t want a poly relationship don’t date me, and that’s okay, because I’m not interested in dating ANYONE who won’t respect the relationships I’m already in.
(I am not interested in dating anyone else at this time, because I am supremely happy on the love/sex/relationship/family front, but when I *was* available/interested, I always told people right up front that I was poly and that I wasn’t going to change that.)
My Dearly Beloveds actually helped set me up with my now-partner of four years — we’d been friends for some time, but he was staying with us for a weekend, and my lovely girlfriend (who has No Filter Whatsoever) practically threw me at him — because they know me well enough (friends since ’97 or so, about to celebrate our 9th anniversary early next year) that they knew we’d make each other happy. And we do 🙂
— A <3
Yep — what said. All of my partners met me when I already had another partner/s, and I was very clear about it from the start. People who don’t want a poly relationship don’t date me, and that’s okay, because I’m not interested in dating ANYONE who won’t respect the relationships I’m already in.
(I am not interested in dating anyone else at this time, because I am supremely happy on the love/sex/relationship/family front, but when I *was* available/interested, I always told people right up front that I was poly and that I wasn’t going to change that.)
My Dearly Beloveds actually helped set me up with my now-partner of four years — we’d been friends for some time, but he was staying with us for a weekend, and my lovely girlfriend (who has No Filter Whatsoever) practically threw me at him — because they know me well enough (friends since ’97 or so, about to celebrate our 9th anniversary early next year) that they knew we’d make each other happy. And we do 🙂
— A <3
I think that one approach that might be more effective would be to throw out the “I don’t believe” part. I believe in monogamy. I see it all the time! However, it’s not right for *me*.
FWIW, it comes across as really disrespectful to a lot of people to say you “don’t believe in” relationships that don’t happen to meet your needs/wants. It’s maybe a better idea to say something like “Hey! I really like you! I’d love to go out for coffee sometime.”
And then, over coffee, before anybody takes their clothes off or gets emotionally committed, you say “I want to be up-front — I don’t know whether or not I want a sexually exclusive relationship. I’m still working out in my head whether I’d actually want to have multiple partners or not, but I do want to be honest with you that the possibility might come up. Of course, you’d have the freedom to do the same — I’m okay with taking things as they come and talking them out, and I do promise to be honest and ethical with you if I have an interest in someone else. Is that something you can see yourself doing, or is that a dealbreaker for you?”
If it’s a dealbreaker, then they probably aren’t the right person for you, and you’re just out a cup of coffee and a couple of hours of time.
A lot of people *are* monogamous, and they *will* be put off by that — I’ve gotta be honest. But if you are interested in being nonmonogamous, it’s probably not the best idea to date monogamous people, because you’re very likely to wind up having incompatible needs and making each other unhappy.
Some percentage of people are actively poly, a larger percentage are . . . poly-curious, maybe? Or nonmonogamy-curious? Those are the ones who you should try dating, because you know they’re open to the idea of something other than monogamy-only.
And no, you don’t have to be “a poly” (there is no such thing as “a poly.” There are “poly people.”) to be in an open relationship — a lot of nonmonogamous dynamics aren’t poly at all. You can have a basically monogamous relationship where the two of you are free to have sex with friends sometimes. Or you can be swingers. Or you can mostly date just one person but you’re allowed to express interest in someone fabulous should they come along.
There are a lot of permutations and possibilities (I was in a couple of “open relationships” before I was poly — in my case, I’m a bisexual woman, I was dating dudes, and I had “permission” to court and sleep with women, since I didn’t have any sexual/dating experience with women, and I wanted to explore that part of my sexuality. Now, I’m a lot happier having my relationship with my girlfriend have the same weight as those with my male partners — she’s not a sex toy, she’s a person!), but no, you don’t have to identify as poly to be nonmonogamous, or to be ethically nonmonogamous.
— A <3
please pardon my tactlessness, yes.
I think that one approach that might be more effective would be to throw out the “I don’t believe” part. I believe in monogamy. I see it all the time! However, it’s not right for *me*.
FWIW, it comes across as really disrespectful to a lot of people to say you “don’t believe in” relationships that don’t happen to meet your needs/wants. It’s maybe a better idea to say something like “Hey! I really like you! I’d love to go out for coffee sometime.”
And then, over coffee, before anybody takes their clothes off or gets emotionally committed, you say “I want to be up-front — I don’t know whether or not I want a sexually exclusive relationship. I’m still working out in my head whether I’d actually want to have multiple partners or not, but I do want to be honest with you that the possibility might come up. Of course, you’d have the freedom to do the same — I’m okay with taking things as they come and talking them out, and I do promise to be honest and ethical with you if I have an interest in someone else. Is that something you can see yourself doing, or is that a dealbreaker for you?”
If it’s a dealbreaker, then they probably aren’t the right person for you, and you’re just out a cup of coffee and a couple of hours of time.
A lot of people *are* monogamous, and they *will* be put off by that — I’ve gotta be honest. But if you are interested in being nonmonogamous, it’s probably not the best idea to date monogamous people, because you’re very likely to wind up having incompatible needs and making each other unhappy.
Some percentage of people are actively poly, a larger percentage are . . . poly-curious, maybe? Or nonmonogamy-curious? Those are the ones who you should try dating, because you know they’re open to the idea of something other than monogamy-only.
And no, you don’t have to be “a poly” (there is no such thing as “a poly.” There are “poly people.”) to be in an open relationship — a lot of nonmonogamous dynamics aren’t poly at all. You can have a basically monogamous relationship where the two of you are free to have sex with friends sometimes. Or you can be swingers. Or you can mostly date just one person but you’re allowed to express interest in someone fabulous should they come along.
There are a lot of permutations and possibilities (I was in a couple of “open relationships” before I was poly — in my case, I’m a bisexual woman, I was dating dudes, and I had “permission” to court and sleep with women, since I didn’t have any sexual/dating experience with women, and I wanted to explore that part of my sexuality. Now, I’m a lot happier having my relationship with my girlfriend have the same weight as those with my male partners — she’s not a sex toy, she’s a person!), but no, you don’t have to identify as poly to be nonmonogamous, or to be ethically nonmonogamous.
— A <3
please pardon my tactlessness, yes.
I wrote to Dan, too, but not nearly so eloquently! Nicely done. I hope that he will eventually change his tune on this as he did with bisexuality. I remember heavily face-palming when he said that about bisexuality back in the day. So I do know that he’s capable of reevaluating his ideas. It seemed completely unnecessary for him to sell out poly people, which is what made it seem so lame, in my opinion.
I wrote to Dan, too, but not nearly so eloquently! Nicely done. I hope that he will eventually change his tune on this as he did with bisexuality. I remember heavily face-palming when he said that about bisexuality back in the day. So I do know that he’s capable of reevaluating his ideas. It seemed completely unnecessary for him to sell out poly people, which is what made it seem so lame, in my opinion.
p.s. thank you for this, it’s awesomely detailed and polite and logically sweeps the floor with Dan/his kneejerk reaction, but I imagine he’s too stubborn to relent on this for years, if ever.
p.s. thank you for this, it’s awesomely detailed and polite and logically sweeps the floor with Dan/his kneejerk reaction, but I imagine he’s too stubborn to relent on this for years, if ever.
Dan: “You annoy me and you need a smackdown for your non-adherence to the albeit recent modern linguistic conventions of the non-monogamous and sexual-advocacy communities. Also, it is my belief at this time that non-monogamous inclinations are chosen, not innate. I’m not going to provide the excuse for your cheating ass.”
I think it might be closer, given his followup, to say “You annoy me and you need a smackdown for your non-adherence to the albeit recent modern linguistic conventions of the non-monogamous and sexual-advocacy communities. Also, it is my belief at this time that all people are basically non-monogamous. I’m not going to provide the excuse for your cheating ass.”
Which is a bit that rankles me, particularly in light of the fact that you can’t really say “all people have two legs.”
There are all sorts of evolutionary psychology arguments in favor of the notion that all people are non-monogamous, but I don’t find any of them compelling. I do find the argument that human beings did not evolve to be naturally monogamous compelling, but that’s a different argument altogether. (To understand why, consider the difference between “human beings, like other mammals, evolved with two distinct biological sexes that both act together for procreation” and “all people are heterosexual.” The fact that we may have evolved mating strategies that include gobs of non-monogamy doesn’t mean that every individual is “naturally” non-monogamous, and the fact that we evolved two distinct biological sexes doesn’t mean each individual fits one of those two sexes–there are many people born intersexed, for example–nor that all people are heterosexual.)
I really don’t think it’s a matter of semantics. Dan’s followup comment about not being bigoted because he isn’t proposing laws against polyamory explains why: The notion that sexual identity is an inherent, immutable, inborn trait is a deeply political idea. We live in a culture that is wedded, for many reasons, to the notion that denying rights to someone on the basis of an inborn trait is unfair.
The idea that polyamory might be an inborn trait is something that many people who campaign for gay and lesbian rights find unsettling. This isn’t just Dan Savage; I’ve encountered quite a few LGBTQ activists who are resentful of it. I’ve heard some people argue that campaigning for poly rights plays into the hands of homophobes who use “what’s next, polygamy?”-style arguments against gay marriage and I’ve heard other folks complain that poly folks are all promiscuous and they don’t want to play into the hands of folks who believe that gays are also promiscuous.
So while I agree there is muddy language at work here–for instance, polyamory is a particular expression of non-monogamy, so it makes little sense to talk about “monogamy or polyamory” rather than “monogamy or non-monogamy”–I also think there’s a political motivation at work, too.
I agree with many of your numerous points here.
I particularly like your analogy about evolving two genders to procreate not equaling “everyone is heterosexual”, in the way that not everyone is naturally non-monogamous.
I think with romantic relationships there is a huge emotional element. I remember in a counseling session in uni, I expressed guilt at any feelings of jealousy or posessiveness that I had in relationships – I felt those emotions were conditioned into me. They psychologist referred to studies of infants done where the infants manifested possessiveness, territorialness, and jealousy, leading the studies to conclude these were innate tendencies, not conditioned. Which to me says that some people are naturally emotionally pre-disposed to monogamous relationships, some people don’t have a jealous bone in their body and are, possibly, the evolutionary non-monogamists that Dan so likes to generalize about, and others, like me, experience jealousy but have ethical and logical reasons to reject possessiveness as a lifestyle, and practice non-monogamy as an ethical choice.
Not being a mono-sexual, I have no way of knowing if mono-sexuality is a born trait. I have long thought that the claims that it was, are a political strategy that may backfire in the end. There is the possibility that homosexuality could be considered a birth defect, which horrifies me to no end, or a genetic trait that is somehow “less” than being born straight, something to be pitied, and requiring legal allowances for it. I may be entirely wrong – probably it IS a born trait, but I don’t see it as any different than traits of blonde hair or brown.
As a political strategy, I would rather win gay rights NOT as a case of “I can’t help it, I was born this way, so give me my rights”, but rather a case of, “My choice of partner causes no harm to anyone, so please give each of us the right to choose a partner of either gender as our heart leads.” Whether mono-sexuality is a born trait, a learned or conditioned trait, a matter of logic, or preference, or chemistry – none of that should matter for the political and legal right to choose a partner (or partners). The “born this way” may be working as a political strategy, but I cringe at the implication of “I can’t help it, pity me” that has no place in our sexual choices.
Thank you for sharing this.
A favorite poem of mine, by William Stafford, is “A Ritual To Read To Each Other”:
For there is many a small betrayal in the mind,
a shrug that lets the fragile sequence break
sending with shouts the horrible errors of childhood
storming out to play through the broken dyke.
And as elephants parade holding each elephant’s tail,
but if one wanders the circus won’t find the park,
I call it cruel and maybe the root of all cruelty
to know what occurs but not recognize the fact.
And so I appeal to a voice, to something shadowy,
a remote important region in all who talk:
though we could fool each other, we should consider–
lest the parade of our mutual life get lost in the dark.
For it is important that awake people be awake,
or a breaking line may discourage them back to sleep;
the signals we give–yes or no, or maybe–
should be clear: the darkness around us is deep.
I’ve got it memorized, and if you would like to hear it spoken with conviction and love, ask me when you see me, and I will.
Thank you for sharing this.
A favorite poem of mine, by William Stafford, is “A Ritual To Read To Each Other”:
For there is many a small betrayal in the mind,
a shrug that lets the fragile sequence break
sending with shouts the horrible errors of childhood
storming out to play through the broken dyke.
And as elephants parade holding each elephant’s tail,
but if one wanders the circus won’t find the park,
I call it cruel and maybe the root of all cruelty
to know what occurs but not recognize the fact.
And so I appeal to a voice, to something shadowy,
a remote important region in all who talk:
though we could fool each other, we should consider–
lest the parade of our mutual life get lost in the dark.
For it is important that awake people be awake,
or a breaking line may discourage them back to sleep;
the signals we give–yes or no, or maybe–
should be clear: the darkness around us is deep.
I’ve got it memorized, and if you would like to hear it spoken with conviction and love, ask me when you see me, and I will.
I’m a little surprised at the degree to which people love to hate Dan Savage. Less Franklin’s original post than the parade of comments afterwards.
So Dan doesn’t think it’s an orientation the same way gay/straight/bi are. Big whoop. That alone doesn’t make him a bigot. The people who use “it’s a choice” as an argument against homosexuality aren’t bigots because they believe it’s a choice; they’re bigots because they use that argument as an excuse to discriminate, condemn, outlaw, and abuse. And I don’t see Savage condemning poly folk or campaigning against their rights. On the contrary, he’s generally supportive and respectful of the poly people who write to him for advice, and he periodically has poly celebs (e.g. Matisse) on his show to talk about poly issues. If this is your type specimen of an evil bigot, I think you could use a little perspective.
I’m polyamorous and straight. But at least for me *I* don’t feel like those two things are orientations on quite the same level. An attempt to be in a gay relationship wouldn’t last out the first date – I can’t generate a smidgen of sexual attraction for a man. An attempt to be in a mono relationship might last up to a year or two, and could involve real love and devotion the whole time. That puts my poly orientation in a whole different ballpark from my straight orientation. Could my polyamorousness be called innate, or an orientation? Probably. In fact I’ve used that argument myself. Do I think reasonable people can disagree about that? Yes, I do.
So what Dan said is one valid reading of my personal experience. Your experience may vary, of course.
So Dan may be off-base, but I just don’t see where it justifies the degree of vehemence of most of the comments. To me, Dan’s comment rises only to the level of “mildly irritating disagreement about terminology”. Y’all are reacting like he said poly people are evil and should be barred from raising children or holding public office.
Edit: grammar fix.
To be honest, this column was pretty mild.
The outrage is because he’s got a ten-year history of saying some *really* fucked-up and bigoted things about poly people, bi people (including, famously, that there is “no such thing as a bisexual man, they’re just gay and haven’t admitted it yet” — tell that to my boyfriend!), and trans people.
That’s where the anger is coming from — it’s not that what he said here was so far out of line, it’s that there’s a LOT of history there.
— A <3
I’m a little surprised at the degree to which people love to hate Dan Savage. Less Franklin’s original post than the parade of comments afterwards.
So Dan doesn’t think it’s an orientation the same way gay/straight/bi are. Big whoop. That alone doesn’t make him a bigot. The people who use “it’s a choice” as an argument against homosexuality aren’t bigots because they believe it’s a choice; they’re bigots because they use that argument as an excuse to discriminate, condemn, outlaw, and abuse. And I don’t see Savage condemning poly folk or campaigning against their rights. On the contrary, he’s generally supportive and respectful of the poly people who write to him for advice, and he periodically has poly celebs (e.g. Matisse) on his show to talk about poly issues. If this is your type specimen of an evil bigot, I think you could use a little perspective.
I’m polyamorous and straight. But at least for me *I* don’t feel like those two things are orientations on quite the same level. An attempt to be in a gay relationship wouldn’t last out the first date – I can’t generate a smidgen of sexual attraction for a man. An attempt to be in a mono relationship might last up to a year or two, and could involve real love and devotion the whole time. That puts my poly orientation in a whole different ballpark from my straight orientation. Could my polyamorousness be called innate, or an orientation? Probably. In fact I’ve used that argument myself. Do I think reasonable people can disagree about that? Yes, I do.
So what Dan said is one valid reading of my personal experience. Your experience may vary, of course.
So Dan may be off-base, but I just don’t see where it justifies the degree of vehemence of most of the comments. To me, Dan’s comment rises only to the level of “mildly irritating disagreement about terminology”. Y’all are reacting like he said poly people are evil and should be barred from raising children or holding public office.
Edit: grammar fix.
This week’s column is up, and in it he notes an outpouring of “Boy are you wrong” from poly people, the entirety of the column is some of their emails:
http://www.avclub.com/articles/december-5-2012%2C89443/
This week’s column is up, and in it he notes an outpouring of “Boy are you wrong” from poly people, the entirety of the column is some of their emails:
http://www.avclub.com/articles/december-5-2012%2C89443/
To be honest, this column was pretty mild.
The outrage is because he’s got a ten-year history of saying some *really* fucked-up and bigoted things about poly people, bi people (including, famously, that there is “no such thing as a bisexual man, they’re just gay and haven’t admitted it yet” — tell that to my boyfriend!), and trans people.
That’s where the anger is coming from — it’s not that what he said here was so far out of line, it’s that there’s a LOT of history there.
— A <3
I understand the whole territorial pissing contest with other authors, and my comment may be seen as trolling, but I am assuming you honestly do want to hear other perspectives, esp since both Poly and LGBT are both identities of People who as citizens in the United States do not have their rights and privileges which are guaranteed by the Constitution because they are not recognized by the govt. as being worthy of the same benefits and privileges afforded to traditional committed one man and one woman relationships. It is NOT Dan Savage who you should be offended by, all groups currently discriminated against should ban together to quicken recognition of your nearly 250 years overdue Constitutional rights.
I hate it when you do science an injustice by writing falsely of it, but I will leave that alone today, and more than likely piss off both Poly and LGBT (although that is NOT my intention) but you really should be weary of letting the bigoted right wing frame of thought drag you down. It doesn’t matter if it is an orientation, I believe the homosexuality can be a genetic trait, I won’t say that poly can’t, but for Christ’s sake IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE GENETIC, there is a absolutely necessary reason for the separation of church and state. And the Constitution was written in very explicit English and it was written for both Poly and LGBT citizens as you are without any doubt People. If you are going to get offended, then do it, but after the idiocy of making the claims that Savage viewpoint about it not being an orientation is the tomorrows bigotry, is bullshit. Sex is an act, it doesn’t matter if you are homo, hetero, poly or moly and there is nothing in the Constitution that say only the pursuits which are taken due to genetic hardwiring in regards to the happiness. You are NOT doing anything wrong, you are not harming anyone in being who you are. All the bullshit about harming families and children is bogus. Unless you are forcing your children to watch you and your partners have sex (which would be damaging to see homo, hetero, poly it doesn’t fucking matter) when children witness reasonable displays of affection by adults it doesn’t hurt them. That is modeling a healthy relationship.
All harm done to children is not the non-traditional household, the harm is done by the hatred and affliction shown by the bigots who are the assholes you should be mad at
Come on, WTF? We need Republicans to distance themselves from the bigoted ones who will drag your party down. THE SAME people who cost Romney the election, get rid of them
I understand the whole territorial pissing contest with other authors, and my comment may be seen as trolling, but I am assuming you honestly do want to hear other perspectives, esp since both Poly and LGBT are both identities of People who as citizens in the United States do not have their rights and privileges which are guaranteed by the Constitution because they are not recognized by the govt. as being worthy of the same benefits and privileges afforded to traditional committed one man and one woman relationships. It is NOT Dan Savage who you should be offended by, all groups currently discriminated against should ban together to quicken recognition of your nearly 250 years overdue Constitutional rights.
I hate it when you do science an injustice by writing falsely of it, but I will leave that alone today, and more than likely piss off both Poly and LGBT (although that is NOT my intention) but you really should be weary of letting the bigoted right wing frame of thought drag you down. It doesn’t matter if it is an orientation, I believe the homosexuality can be a genetic trait, I won’t say that poly can’t, but for Christ’s sake IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE GENETIC, there is a absolutely necessary reason for the separation of church and state. And the Constitution was written in very explicit English and it was written for both Poly and LGBT citizens as you are without any doubt People. If you are going to get offended, then do it, but after the idiocy of making the claims that Savage viewpoint about it not being an orientation is the tomorrows bigotry, is bullshit. Sex is an act, it doesn’t matter if you are homo, hetero, poly or moly and there is nothing in the Constitution that say only the pursuits which are taken due to genetic hardwiring in regards to the happiness. You are NOT doing anything wrong, you are not harming anyone in being who you are. All the bullshit about harming families and children is bogus. Unless you are forcing your children to watch you and your partners have sex (which would be damaging to see homo, hetero, poly it doesn’t fucking matter) when children witness reasonable displays of affection by adults it doesn’t hurt them. That is modeling a healthy relationship.
All harm done to children is not the non-traditional household, the harm is done by the hatred and affliction shown by the bigots who are the assholes you should be mad at
Come on, WTF? We need Republicans to distance themselves from the bigoted ones who will drag your party down. THE SAME people who cost Romney the election, get rid of them